Sunday, 30 October 2011

Manston Airport – Proposed Night-time Flying Policy published online.

Update the council have also put up the documents at http://www.thanet.gov.uk/council__democracy/consultation/night-time_flying_policy/infratil_documents_2010.aspx an initial glance suggests there are some different ones.  

Here is the link to the page of links to the documents http://www.manstonairport.com/about-the-airport/planning/night-flight-policy.html

I may add to this when I have read them, an initial glance suggests that the figures for airport expansion and therefore the economic justification are not realistic. This is probably my fault for not understanding them properly.

As far as I can work out from the report about 60 people working at the airport live in Thanet and they have provided a map to show their distribution. Oddly enough they seem to have moved Ramsgate. I am sure that this is some mistake of mine, but it appears from the map that the report is confused about the location of Ramsgate. 


Please excuse funny tables and stuff appearing here I am trying to produce something that people can actually understand from the proposed night time flying policy. 


Having read and attempted to understand some of this proposed nigh time flying document that is published at http://www.manstonairport.com/userfiles/files/Night-flight-policy/Night-time-Flying-Policy-Submission-271011.pdf it seems on the surface that the author has gone out of the way to make it difficult for an ordinary member of the public to understand.

I find this very strange because the whole subject of night time flights is going to public consultation, so one would expect that if the airport want public support in this consultation process, they would want us to support them in their proposals.

The first thing to get sorted is how loud is what, aircraft noise is designated in a scale that goes QC.25 QC.5 QC1 QC2 QC4 QC8 QC16

Aircraft are at their loudest when taking off and as far as I can see the loudest commercial aircraft are Q4 on takeoff, see table below.     



Aircraft type
QC Departure
QC Arrival

Airbus A320 family
0.5 - 1
0.25 - 0.5

Airbus A380
2
0.5

Boeing 737 Classic
0.25 - 0.5
1

Boeing 747-400
4
2

Boeing 757-200
0.5
0.25

Boeing 767-300
1-2
1

Boeing 777-200ER
2
1

Embraer 145
0.25
0.25

Most other UK airports limit the night time planes to those either Q2 and below or Q1 and below, Manston seems to be asking for QC4.     


It does appear that what the airport are asking for is for them to be allowed to make the loudest noise that they make during the day, during the night.



It seems that the airport are looking to achieve a relatively high night flying quota in terms of the number of night movements relative to their current level of day movements.


I don’t think a night time quota now can reasonably relate some future level of daytime activity and associated employment, nor do I think the present level of airport employment at about 60 locals on an income of about £20k pa would justify any increase in airport noise.

At a very local level would the 14ish people living in Ramsgate and earning a below average wage justify noise that could damage other aspects of the local economy?

45 comments:

  1. Thank you for posting the link to the report, which I've started to scan through.

    If I'm reading it right, page 26 says that night flights will increase passengers from 989k to 2.286 million. I'm not sure whether this is an annual figure but on the same page in para 3.23 it talks about passengers departing at 6 a.m. (goodness knows what time they will have to book in) and others arriving back after 11 p.m.

    I have not been able to see yet how this volume of passengers are supposed to get to and fro to Manston at that time of day/night. The transport links to Heathrow and Gatwick are much better so will people want to go via Manston? If it's anticipated that a lot will travel by car I wonder what petrol/diesel will cost in 2018? Investment in a new Manston rail station in the current financial situation would seem optimistic to me.

    I'll keep reading but does anyone know any more about this?

    ReplyDelete
  2. If you took the time to check you would see that it's Google who place Ramsgate where it's shown. But there's no bias towards your argument if you blame Google!

    ReplyDelete
  3. Off topic I know. There`s no mention of the fireworks display at Minister on the visit Thanet website.

    Anyone know any details?

    ReplyDelete
  4. 21.00 I agree it certainly isn’t the easiest thing to follow.

    21.37 thanks for pointing it out, I hadn’t noticed, lets hope the people writing the report are not confused about the location of Ramsgate.

    9.59 assuming you mean Minster and not Minister. Minster firework display is on Friday 4th November at Minster recreation ground, gates open at 6pm display at 7pm.

    The strange thing about the various council funded tourism websites is that they don’t seem to relate to the bit of paper that the tourist information people use to tell people what’s on.

    ReplyDelete
  5. I wouldn't worry yourself about any tourism events Michael, for when the New Zealand company 'Infratil' get their way Thanet will not have a tourism economy.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Given that Bob Bayford and the North Coast Blackshirts have already decided the outcome of the consultation one can only presume that said consultation will be along the same lines as the governance one - in other words, invisible.
    Bit inconvenient for the Toytown Tories that the much-admired MP for Thanet South has come out against night flights. Still, she's only a woman, maybe she'd be better concentrating on a bit of voluntary work or knitting or something. Calm down dear, as I'm sure I remember some public school chappie say.

    ReplyDelete
  7. What's wrong with knitting?

    ReplyDelete
  8. More to the point, what is wrong with calming down? Some of our locals could certainly benefit from such advice for sometimes wonder how they get any circulation to their nether regions, their knickers being in such a twist. Maybe they don't which could explain the perma red faces.

    ReplyDelete
  9. 1215 and 1222. Sorry, you missed the point. The voluntary work suggestion is actually one directed by a well-known local councillor at the editor of our local paper after he felt that she was a little inadequate; in other words, had not prostrated herself in adoration at his feet in a recent column in her paper. "Calm down dear" is, of course, our Great Leader.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Mingles, you're ever-so-slightly obsessed with him. Are you a jilted ex of his or something?

    ReplyDelete
  11. Mingles, methinks you are treating 12:15 and I (12:22)as complete idiots. Yes, we followed where you were coming from with your anti-Tory Councillor and PM jibe, but were introducing a touch of humour to the situation.

    Some of us have a tad more grey matter than your average lefty!

    ReplyDelete
  12. 12:08; businesses in the posh town of Broadstairs will do ok, the peasants in Ramsgate may not fare so well.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Peter. Sorry for the delay, was away from the keyboard and when I returned had to visit your slightly sordid website to remind myself what obsession really means. See my pictures are still there.
    If other Councillors were regular bloggers they would attract the same interest. Since only Simon has the chutzpah to put his head above the parapet it's inevitable that he's going to be shot at, especially since he's so pompous.

    ReplyDelete
  14. I think Peter and Mingles are both obsessed with t*ts!

    ReplyDelete
  15. Michael I think you may mean 14,000ish rather than "14ish people living in Ramsgate".

    But did you check out the Sound Insulation Scheme document? There appears to be no committment by the airport to pay for such a scheme and for the thousands like me that always have a window open at night its totally useless and no doubt will be in the summer when most people have to have windows open.

    ReplyDelete
  16. 18.54 from the airport’s own statistics about 14 of their employees live in Ramsgate and are paid about £20K PA. This could be compared with the number of people moving to Ramsgate because the train journey to London takes less time then the train journey to Whitstable and how many of them would locate elsewhere if the night flying restrictions were less stringent than say the ones for Gatwick.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Can't belive anyone in Ramsgate sleeps with a window open. They must be very brave (or foolish)!

    ReplyDelete
  18. I always sleep with my window open because I know, I just know, that some balmy summer evening a devastatingly beautiful girl will climb through that window desperate for my favours. I also leave it open in the depths of winter in the hope of attracting a hardier soul: a Norse goddess perhaps. Well I shall have to go now it's time for my pill.

    ReplyDelete
  19. In that case, John, I hope you sleep with your teeth in.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Anonymous,

    I always sleep with my teeth in, however, I always ensure that she removes hers. One cannot be too careful in these matters.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Especially in this day and age!

    ReplyDelete
  22. I never sleep with my window open as I live next to a train station so it's too noisy. However I knew about the station when I moved here so I don't complain about the trains.

    ReplyDelete
  23. I knew about the airport when i moved to Ramsgate, and I knew it had a restriction on night time flying. Never in my wildest dreams did I think the council would actually support 747's flying throughout the night.

    Michael has hit the nail on the head. For the sake of a few low paid jobs the council will drive out all commuters and their big disposable incomes to nicer areas......and I don't mean Margate.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Anonymous @13:24,

    I take your point; however the rich an famous and commuters continue to live in areas beneath the noisy Heathrow approaches. Places such as Richmond, Osterly, Windsor, Wimbledon, Battersea, Wandsworth, Putney and many more. I have not heard that any of these areas are suffering from plummeting house prices and mass exodus as a result of noise.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Anonymous at 13:24,

    Please refer to my immediately proceeding blog.

    To be fair you were in fact referring only to night flights. I understand that LHR & LGW restrict night flights. Presumably you do not object to daytime flights.

    My apologies for having misunderstood you.

    ReplyDelete
  26. John, you still have a point for there are some pretty upmarket homes on the flight path's of several RAF bases I can think of, and they do have night flights. Even have noisier planes aswell.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Commuters with big disposable incomes will presumably be mainly Tory voters. Why then, if the airport is likely to drive them away, would Thanet Labour oppose night flights? Could tip the balance in their favour.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Anonymous @ 20:13,

    What makes you think that rich people only vote Tory. A study of the facts will disabuse you of this curious notion.

    Clearly, you have never been to Hampstead or Islington, the home of the champagne socialists

    ReplyDelete
  29. If night flights are allowed then the Pleasurama development will become a TDC own goal. Who in their right mind will pay £300,000 for apartments right under the flight path? The proposed hotel will become a non starter. It would be rather a large bill for TDC to pick up to return this eye sore in to even a landscape sea front.

    ReplyDelete
  30. John, I did say 'mainly' and am well aware that it is not exclusively so. Nonetheless, you must agree that whilst the more expensive areas (property wise) of Broadstairs and Birchington are mainly Tory, areas like Newington, Millmead, Cliftonville West and Central Margate are Labour strongholds.

    Anyway, the arguments for and against Manston expansion are mainly flawed on these blogs with exaggerated claims on both sides.

    ReplyDelete
  31. John Holyer, Putney, as an example, is 10 miles from Heathrow. you go 10 miles from Manston's runway, you are in the middle of the english channel one side, the middle of the thames the other.

    The truth is, no airport in the UK has such a large urban area so close to the runway and operate 24 hour operations - which is what Infratil/Manston

    ReplyDelete
  32. 13:24, Consider Hatton Cross & Hounslow, for example. The former is practically part of LHR. I know first hand for I have stayed there.

    ReplyDelete
  33. 13:24,

    I think you will find that a distance of 10 miles does not put you in the middle of the Thames, which is much further away than that.

    ReplyDelete
  34. I remember Manston as a child and the Thunder Jets operated by the USAF. Now that was noise!

    ReplyDelete
  35. OMG, the Thames is just 10 miles from Manston and I gave up commuting by car because the smoke was too far. Methinks somebody needs a geography lesson for 10 miles the other way from Manston will barely get you to Canterbury.

    In fact, in Southern England, Manston is located in one of the least built up areas when compared with all other airports.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Here is a council that cares for it's residents
    Richmond Council stands firm on opposition to Heathrow night flights
    The council will call for the Government to ban all night flights at Heathrow in its official response to
    the DfT consultation in spring of 2012. Richmond Council’s special standing committee on Heathrow
    said no planes should take off or land at the airport between 11pm and 7am. The night flights
    consultation was delayed in May, as the government is still consulting on its aviation Scoping
    Document, until the end of September. 19.8.2011 http://bit.ly/r1huOh Richmond residents under
    Heathrow’s flightpaths are now also concerned the council had scrapped its noise complaints hotline,
    in order to save money, just as BAA prepares for its new trials. Richmond Council will have no
    reliable measure of the number of people suffering disruption when the airport uses both runways
    simultaneously.
    Stargazer

    ReplyDelete
  37. About Manston: Dave of Falmouth said, "f they are using a high speed rail link, then why not look at a branch of the chunnel line and placing it at somewhere like in the manston or deal areas where it would be surrounded by seaward approach and thus far more practical. The journey from london weould (sic) take only a few minutes and build on existing infrastructure.
    - dave, falmouth, 03/11/2011 08:34


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2056504/Lord-Foster-unveils-50bn-plans-Thames-Estuary-airport-handle-150-million-passengers-year.html#ixzz1cdGwGxE4

    3 November 2011 09:22

    ReplyDelete
  38. Then the Stop Night Flights Group can move from Ramsgate to Richmond and then everyone will be happy. Not sure what the average Ramsgate house price buys in Richmond and, of course, there are Tories there aswell, but at least they would get a good night's sleep.

    ReplyDelete
  39. A Ramsgate house would buy a rather nice conservatory in Richmond.

    I lived in Richmond for a year or so in my teens; it's a very pleasant area.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Just had a look at a few statistics. At Heathrow they allow a maximum of 5800 night flights a year.

    Infratil is asking for a maximum of 8 night-flights per night. This works out at a maximum of 2920 per year!!!

    At Manston the number of commercial flights per year is 0.25% of the number at Heathrow.

    On the basis of these figures, I think it's safe to say that Infratil's request is vastly excessive for the size of airport they are running. In fact, the number of night-flights they are requesting exceeds the number of commercial flights they operate durung the day-time.

    If Manston were to request a proportionately similar number of night-flights to Heathrow they would only need 15 night-flights per year. They have more than that at the moment.

    ReplyDelete
  41. The point you miss, 9:25, is that Infratil are requesting the increase in night flights to attract more airlines to Manston. More airlines would mean more day time flights as well.

    Your proportion, using the old adage that statistics can serve to prove any point of view, is based on current day flights against proposed night flight levels.

    Thanet is my childhood home, somewhere I have always gravitated back to and, ultimately, I fulfilled my dream of retiring here. Big mistake for over the years the place has filled up with whingers determined to keep it as a place for the unemployed and unsatisfied.

    Like John Holyer I remember the Thunder Jets of the USAF, the towns teeming with activity from a busy air force base and all the businesses that benefitted from that. People like you are quick to complain about our now dead town centres, but any proposal that might bring more trade and work, no way! Out with the protest banners.

    Frankly, if I could sell my house, I would happily move to somewhere where people welcome investment and new enterprises. Not complain about everything from the Turner, to Tesco to the airport.

    ReplyDelete
  42. To anonymous at 4 November 10:26,

    "The point you miss, 9:25....." etc.

    I wish I had said all that and I probably will when you are not looking.

    I agree with you all the way.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Be my guest, John, for the more people who say it the more likely someone will notice.

    ReplyDelete
  44. "The point you miss, 9:25, is that Infratil are requesting the increase in night flights to attract more airlines to Manston. More airlines would mean more day time flights as well."

    I hadn't "missed" this point at all, because it is a load of codswallop. There isn't a shred of evidence that allowing night-flights will increase daytime activity.

    Allowing night-flights is quite obviously a move to attract the 24/7 freight operators who have difficulty using the London airports because of the restrictions there. These operation will create massive disturbance for few jobs. You could even see further reductions in staffing levels.

    ReplyDelete
  45. I don't think that 09:25 has missed the point at all. The application for night-flights isn't for 2018. It is for now. If they are given permission for 8 flights per night now who is to say that they will achieve their aspirational targets for 2018? Manston's operators have a long record of predicting air-traffic levels that never materialise and there is no reason to suppose that their projections for 2018 are anything more thyan pie-in-the-sky.

    ReplyDelete

Please note comments that may be libellous, comments that may be construed as offensive, anonymous derogatory comments about real people, comments baiting internet trolls, comments saying that an anonymous comment was made by a named real person, boring comments and spam comments, comments in CAPs will be deleted. Playground stuff like calling real people by their time stamp or surname alone, referring to groups as gangs, old duffers and so on will result in deletion. Comment that may be construed as offensive to minority groups is not allowed here either, so think before you write it, remember that the internet is a public place, that it is very difficult to be truly anonymous and that everyone who uses it leaves a trail of some sort. Also note the facility to leave anonymous comment will be turned of during periods when I am unable to monitor comment, this will not affect people commenting who are signed on to their blogger accounts. When things are particularly difficult on the commercial spam front I may turn comment moderation on for periods.

If you feel that someone has left a comment that is offensive and directed at you personally please email me (link on the sidebar) asking to have it removed, you will need to tell which post and the date and timestamp of the offending comment. Please do not reply to the offending comment as I will assume you continuing the dialogue as meaning that you want the comments left there.