tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post949641198832816776..comments2024-03-13T10:32:22.656+00:00Comments on thanetonline: Manston Airport closure issues.Michael Childhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09499435016469020417noreply@blogger.comBlogger119125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-91693881901171149972014-04-30T09:41:20.850+01:002014-04-30T09:41:20.850+01:00Michael, think we are in the same place over a reg...Michael, think we are in the same place over a regional airport and the development of the historic site as a tourist attraction. Unlike you, however, I do not see a major freight hub idea going beyond the drawing board. If Manston in all these years since it became a civilian airport has only attracted a handful of commercial users why should that suddenly change because someone calls it a freight hub. It has always handled freight and was open for such business.<br /><br />In my book, all this pollution stuff based on 100 movements a day is pie in the sky and can only be seen at this time as speculation or possibly scaremongering to counter the support that Manston suddenly has. Relax and get on with life, but time enough to go into detail when some plans and figures, other than guesswork, are actually on the table.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17927801279761727020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-3233253905951078622014-04-29T20:00:07.437+01:002014-04-29T20:00:07.437+01:00William as I have said before I am wholly supporti...William as I have said before I am wholly supportive of a regional passenger airport, the freight hub is the thing that has been hinted at by Roger Gale and the support Manston airport group. Now a freight hub is different to a regional airport and as any decision that we get is likely to be made very quickly I am looking, as one always does, when our local politicians start pushing something, for the snags. Now dipping into the public purse to fund a local airport with the normal things one would expect, like destinations for me and my family is one thing. Using the public purse to support a freight hub, or an aircraft scrap yard, which was another suggestion is something else altogether. I am not saying it is a bad thing, just that it is different to the expectations we have had for Manston in the past. With the wind direction, combined with the already high levels of local air pollution I am exploring the possibility that this could say knock a say couple of years of the lives of the people living in parts of Thanet other than Ramsgate, people who were previously unaffected by the down side of the airport, which so far has only been noise pollution in Ramsgate. So assuming you accept that there will be some air pollution in Broadstairs and that it will reduce your life expectancy, something that isn’t proven but seems likely, it does raise questions like, what period of life reduction would you be prepared to give to say keep 100 people in work? Easy to laugh at this one, but in truth this equation works and has worked in much of the worlds industry, coal mining caused people to die much younger, as does the smog in many industrial cities. There is no doubt whatsoever that the emissions from internal combustion engines are both invisible and reduce life expectancy, burning a ton of fuel in a fairly confined area is likely to increase the problem in that confined area. <br /><br />The alternative is either to pretend there is no problem, or at least no to tell people that there may be a problem, by this I mean we both know there is an air pollution problem, that part of this is caused by large aeroplanes taking off, in my book you quantify the problem and it is this that allows you to make an educated decision. Engineers do this all the time on the behalf of others, the R101 is perfectly safe, the titanic is unsinkable and so on. <br />Michael Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09499435016469020417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-18057344277094671232014-04-29T19:28:53.065+01:002014-04-29T19:28:53.065+01:00Peter, he has been dropping electioneering leaflet...Peter, he has been dropping electioneering leaflets around over here in Ramsgate and Broadstairs, but, you are right, there is no election for mayor. Even if there was he would find some excuse for not actually putting in his candidate papers to the Electoral Officer. Last time he did not stand because the council are all corrupt.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17927801279761727020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-88076244777313641812014-04-29T19:25:16.233+01:002014-04-29T19:25:16.233+01:00Michael, am I to take it that the main argument ag...Michael, am I to take it that the main argument against the continuance of Manston as an airport is to be pollution after years of condemnation for its non profitability. It all rather smacks of close the airport come what may whether it is night flights, insufficient activity leading to non profit making or too much activity leading to pollution. Perhaps after all these years you have been infected by the dreaded Aquifer Man. Had you bothered to read my earlier comments you would be aware I prefer the smaller regional airport idea and have reservations about what might be the alternative use.<br /><br />Since you place great reliance on your expertise as an engineer and the vast knowledge on pollution that gives you, let me say that I spent much of my life living and working on busy airfields, often with heavy air traffic and frequently involving V bombers and highly polluting jet fighters. Clearly on your reckoning I should have left this mortal realm years ago. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17927801279761727020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-86818166183100204402014-04-29T19:00:43.466+01:002014-04-29T19:00:43.466+01:00William so looking at equating airport use to ligh...William so looking at equating airport use to light industrial, I worked as an engineer at Rovex which is pretty common knowledge locally so I know about the energy and emissions created by factories in Thanet, compare one aircraft movement for a 747 using one ton of jet engine fuel which is fairly similar to the fuel oil used to heat houses. I guess one ton would provide all of the heating energy and hot water for a large modern house for a year. In engineering most of the energy used is electricity so the emissions do not occur locally, the heat given off by the machine tools at Rovex was pretty much sufficient to heat the factory although the offices did have a central heating system about the size you would expect to heat a couple of houses, so I would say the emissions from that fairly large factory for a year would be about the same as four to six aircraft movements during one day. Michael Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09499435016469020417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-41027530716653376202014-04-29T18:49:08.113+01:002014-04-29T18:49:08.113+01:00A word of warning as the late great JRR said; past...A word of warning as the late great JRR said; pasting great chunks of other websites into the comment form either as trolling or as troll baiting will be treated as spam and may result in Google blocking your ip address. Michael Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09499435016469020417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-77636761544096860132014-04-29T18:39:50.767+01:002014-04-29T18:39:50.767+01:00"Mayor next week"? I didn't realise..."Mayor next week"? I didn't realise there were local elections to select a mayor (nor that Garbutt was a candidate), obviously another thing I missed!Peter Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06283534498743254609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-27563731629711936412014-04-29T18:27:57.525+01:002014-04-29T18:27:57.525+01:00Tim alert at 6:22 pm.Tim alert at 6:22 pm.John Holyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02284672912775316883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-651094903115336152014-04-29T18:22:32.822+01:002014-04-29T18:22:32.822+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-43403542446752710332014-04-29T18:11:03.946+01:002014-04-29T18:11:03.946+01:00Epps really doesn't like it when confronted by...Epps really doesn't like it when confronted by the inconvenient truth. The problem with arguing that the future may not lie in a freight-only world is that this has already been tried. Since the airport was sold in 1999 they have been trying to get passenger operators to come and use it. This strategy has failed and this is why AG is closing it down. However, for any new investor coming in with ideas of grandeur there are some more unpalatable facts.<br /><br />Firstly, the terminal is outdated and could not cope with a fraction of the traffic needed to break even. A new terminal will have to be built and this will be very expensive. It will also have to go through the planning system and this will present them with a massive problem because the airfield itself doesn't have planning permission. A new terminal will trigger a requirement for them to apply for planning permission for the whole kit and kerboodle. If you look at how long it took to get planning permission approved for the runway extension at Lydd, you can see that a major application of this kind could take ten years to resolve. By this time Gatwick, Heathrow and Stansted will all have new runways and there won't be any pressure on capacity at the major airports.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-13952250413950432772014-04-29T17:29:13.456+01:002014-04-29T17:29:13.456+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17927801279761727020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-54863688836648843372014-04-29T17:27:55.408+01:002014-04-29T17:27:55.408+01:00Michael, since you seem to have totally ignored my...Michael, since you seem to have totally ignored my earlier response and are now seeking to put your interpretation on everything you might as well have this debate with yourself. I have already said I consider a freight only usage most unlikely and that life expectancy issues are far more complex than you seem to be implying. To answer your question though, no pollution has a zero impact, but would the pollution from air movements be any greater than possible alternative uses to which the site might be put, e.g. housing or light industrial and thus more people, more cars more lorries, more emissions. You tell me which is worse for I really do not know.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17927801279761727020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-14827643316169894172014-04-29T16:58:02.628+01:002014-04-29T16:58:02.628+01:00William as I said in my reply to Simon’s comment a...William as I said in my reply to Simon’s comment and in the post itself the issue really relates to how many flights a day are needed to get Manston out of the red and into the black. Looking at the accounts of other airports and at the costs related to Manston and assuming a freight only operation i.e. no expenses for staff to deal with passenger operations but rising staff levels to deal with more freight, then I make this around the 60 flights a day mark. It is very complex and based on what other airports are doing. The additional business has various thresholds, for instance if you are going to have passenger services then you have to have some staff dedicated to these giving another threshold where you go from black to red. This threshold is lower if you are already providing freight services and looks to me to be about ten flights a day.<br /><br />But I would expect any operator would be looking to making a profit and so if it becomes freight only I would expect something in the region of 100 freight flights a day, which I think would be very difficult logistically without considerable improvements to the infrastructure. I also think given the sort of level where a freight only airport becomes viable it would be difficult logistically to combine this with other operations there. <br /><br />Back to the pollution issue and assuming that less fuel was burnt upwind of you in Broadstairs, do you feel that there would be a point where this would have zero impact on your life expectancy? <br /><br />I could be mistaken here, but this article suggests that we already have a problem http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent/news/kent-is-air-pollution-capital-15887/ so activity both in terms of the planes taking off and the extra associate road journeys would add to an existing level of air pollution that is already a problem. <br />Michael Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09499435016469020417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-40433955188109330492014-04-29T16:07:02.985+01:002014-04-29T16:07:02.985+01:00Barry, for once I am in complete accord with you a...Barry, for once I am in complete accord with you and, as I have often said, what a sad day it was when politics was introduced into local governance. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17927801279761727020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-41883788626972246512014-04-29T16:01:31.064+01:002014-04-29T16:01:31.064+01:00What I do find odd (according to the Local Governm...What I do find odd (according to the Local Government Peer review) until the Manston closure was mooted is the admission that TDC Leadership (both officers and members) were not meeting with our 2 elected MP's "because of their opposing political leanings"<br /><br />Why ever not isn't meeting like this good for ThanetGod help ushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12726756701964575422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-18243911649760595802014-04-29T16:00:51.394+01:002014-04-29T16:00:51.394+01:00Michael, did I say anywhere that I supported a fre...Michael, did I say anywhere that I supported a freight hub with 100 movements a day? It is not impossible, but I very much doubt it is going to happen.<br /><br />If you read what I said previously on this issue, it was that if an airport remains at Manston, regardless of its main usage, it will inevitably attract others users like executive aircraft, light private aircraft, flying schools, air sea rescue and, in Manston's case, military has it has done ever since the RAF left. There is also no reason why an airport that is mainly freight cannot also take passenger services. The real question is whether all this could add up to a viable business at the present airfield size.<br /><br />On the other hand, if we lower our ambitions a bit and think of a small regional airfield then plenty of other ex military facilities are surviving. In the south east places like Rochester, Redhill, Biggin Hill, Headcorn and Lydd all survive.<br /><br />Your speculation on where aircraft pollution would extend is seriously flawed. Most take offs are over the fields beyond the runway at the Minster end as most landings come in over Ramsgate. At the altitude of climb on full power the pollution with a prevailing south westerly would extend more towards Minnis Bay to Herne Bay, but, whatever, they are still people and should be included in any public consultation on the use of the field.<br /><br />The life expectancy issue is also flawed, as I believe you well know. Are you suggesting that people in Staines, for example, or Crawley, both subjected to air movements every few minutes, have a lower life expectancy than say those in the Medway with little or no air traffic? There are far more factors to take into account as we currently see with Thanet.<br /><br />Life expectancy for women in Thanet is higher than the Kent average but for men it is lower. In fact Kent has the lowest male life expectancy of any Kent district yet, as the airport detractors have told us often enough, there are hardly any air movements from Manston. Take a closer look and Thanet also has amongst Kent's highest levels of deprivation, smoking and drinking. Just perhaps, that might not help either.<br /><br />I actually do not think we are really that far apart on Manston and I would love to see it become a small airfield, bit like Biggin Hill and with the historic side developed, like Hawkinge, to attract visitors. Sadly, it seems to fall now between total closure or a predominantly freight hub, neither of which would have been my first choice.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17927801279761727020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-2508305654792827012014-04-29T15:18:21.953+01:002014-04-29T15:18:21.953+01:00Right William let me be absolutely clear about thi...Right William let me be absolutely clear about this I am not anti airport and I fully support a regional airport that I can fly somewhere from, as I fully support the historic aircraft activities at Manston which I have always said should be expanded.<br /><br />I do however have major reservations about this new idea of a major airfreight hub at Manston and what I am looking for here is the advantages and disadvantages, economic, environmental and social for Thanet. <br /><br />Now my background is in engineering and science, so I generally see life expectancy in the UK as a balance between modern medicine, which pushes it up, and modern pollution levels, which push it down. The overall direction during the last hundred years has been up and you wouldn’t have modern medicine without modern machinery, which produces the pollution.<br /><br />Now last time I looked Margate was roughly north of Manston, and the bit upwind of where an aircraft are taking off and therefore producing the most pollution (from the western end of the runway to where the aircraft has got high enough for the emissions to blow over the land) extends roughly from Walpole Bay to Dumpton Gap.<br /><br />I don’t think there is any question that air pollution reduces life expectancy, nor do I think there is any question that jet engine fuel and the closely related diesel engine fuel are some of the worse culprits.<br /><br />Now let us say that Manston becomes a viable freight hub with about 100 plane movements a day, this is what you want, isn’t it? Then the fuel allowance for a 747 for a ground movement, taxiing and takeoff of landing is about a ton of fuel. Is there anything that I have said in this comment so far that you disagree with?<br /><br />So in Broadstairs and the surrounding area you could expect about 100 tons of this fuel burnt upwind of you and to be breathing a fair proportion of it in, now are you saying that this wouldn’t reduce your life expectancy? <br />Michael Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09499435016469020417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-89192514950132109142014-04-29T13:45:29.528+01:002014-04-29T13:45:29.528+01:00Michael, I had thought better of you for, in the p...Michael, I had thought better of you for, in the past, you have pointed out to the pollution fanatic that Thanet's air is generally of a satisfactory quality less a couple of hotspots at traffic congestion points. The airport is a minor contributor to air pollution compared with traffic and that essentially means local traffic.<br /><br />Elsewhere I think we have now established that our prevailing wind is a south westerly. In other words it hits Thanet, including Broadstairs, from the direction of the English Channel and south coast, not overland. Even were Manston to suddenly produce high levels of airborne pollution it lies almost directly due west of Broadstairs, not south westerly. A SW wind off Manston would take the air over Margate, if indeed it were of concern.<br /><br />Whilst I am rather tiring of this silly debate, which hinges on the unknown future of Manston, I do find it amusing that when the critics of Manston explain why it cannot be viable it is invariably because it is surrounded by sea on three sides and, thus, has a poor people catchment area. You yourself talk about fishes learning to fly in your more dismissive mode. Now suddenly pollution is being used as a reason for not having an airport future and it seems to be surrounded, not by sea and fishes, but built up areas and people. Do you know, I actually believe that jobs are more important to people than the odd whiff of aviation fuel.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17927801279761727020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-17784358646941724482014-04-29T13:27:51.576+01:002014-04-29T13:27:51.576+01:00William an interesting thought on the air pollutio...William an interesting thought on the air pollution front that I hadn’t really thought of until today, is that being upwind of a major freight air hub and particularly within five miles of it would have air pollution ramifications.<br /><br />As far as I can see after a trawl of the web, the main effect from Manston would be on Broadstairs with continuous exposure leading to reduced life expectancy for those living there.<br /><br />Obviously you can also trawl the web to confirm or deny what I am getting at, many of the sites explaining the this are not those of cranks but governments and well known academic organisations.<br /><br />This seems to imply that this is very much a case of turkeys, if not voting for Christmases in general, then at least one or two.<br /><br />As you live in Broadstairs I wondered if you have any thoughts on this one. <br />Michael Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09499435016469020417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-44190905760634509462014-04-29T12:22:33.848+01:002014-04-29T12:22:33.848+01:00John, no worries your comment made me laugh as I a...John, no worries your comment made me laugh as I assumed it was meant to, as was my comment to you. Mother was the main reason I returned too. Michael Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09499435016469020417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-12690765973351350592014-04-29T12:09:09.924+01:002014-04-29T12:09:09.924+01:00Joe I can’t because as I said this is where I got ...Joe I can’t because as I said this is where I got the wind direction from, however what I can say is that the majority of the air pollution in southern England comes from Road Traffic and building heating, industry and aviation produce relatively minor amounts in comparison.<br /><br />With the pollution generated by Manston, which is mostly aviation fuel burnt during takeoff I can say that it is mostly blown towards the northeast and what comes down before it is blown over the sea mostly lands on Broadstairs and Cliftonville.<br /><br />How much of the pollution generated across southern England arrives in the Thanet air is a complex issue, related to what goes up and what comes down and I think that diesel lorries would be a major factor here. <br />Michael Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09499435016469020417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-35583960521980571252014-04-29T11:44:08.146+01:002014-04-29T11:44:08.146+01:00Michael,
My apologies for my 10:32, I should not ...Michael,<br /><br />My apologies for my 10:32, I should not have replied to you in the way that I did. My only excuse is that all the Thanet negativity rattles me. <br /><br />You ask why I returned to Thanet. My family connections with Ramsgate go back a long way. On my father's side it is about 150 years and my mother about 100 years. I grew up here. This was part of the reason why I returned. The main one and the driving one was that I am an only child and had a widowed mother living in Broadstairs. Apart from that I would have returned to Godalming on retirement which is a town that I love. But I can no longer afford Godalming. So it may be I am stuck here tapping away on blogs. John Holyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02284672912775316883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-79914876612488448822014-04-29T11:40:21.034+01:002014-04-29T11:40:21.034+01:00Michael - perhaps you can point me to the relevant...Michael - perhaps you can point me to the relevant section of the report, but I can see nothing to suggest that vehicle emissions from South-East England blow over to Thanet. Indeed, I think it is highly unlikely that vehicle emissions blow very far at all.<br /><br />As far as I can understand, the report is suggesting that the emissions are due to local traffic and the airport.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12697826755404106727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-74880383196077722092014-04-29T11:29:29.563+01:002014-04-29T11:29:29.563+01:00Joe, calm down for I always assumed you were real....Joe, calm down for I always assumed you were real. I have simply been following a debate on BigNewsMargate where a certain anonymous poster has been claiming that most of us that use a name are using pen names and thus just as anonymous. When asked to list these pseudonym characters he included you, along with others I know to be real, in the list.<br /><br />You will appreciate in my case that my details are verifiable on the Broadstairs Town Council website, even down to a photo (not that I recommend its viewing).<br /><br />Anyway, thanks for confirming that and I hope the anonymous troll who made the suggestion is paying attention.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17927801279761727020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-34345681202531030032014-04-29T11:28:22.514+01:002014-04-29T11:28:22.514+01:00You're struggling to save face Michael. Firstl...You're struggling to save face Michael. Firstly the KentAir reports are off kilter due to no monitoring at Manston. Secondly you've picked out the weaker wind factor ie easterly rather than the prevalent southwesterly. Thirdly you ignore the effects of the airport pollution completely. Although you do note that aviation fuel droplets at low level are being showered on the population.<br /><br />If you're arguing the airport has nothing to do with Thanet 90 deaths at least from air pollution you're doing a very bad job.<br /><br />Perhaps we should discuss the water supply under the runway instead?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com