tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post2111556011633547864..comments2024-03-13T10:32:22.656+00:00Comments on thanetonline: Another sketch of T. S. Royalist in Ramsgate Harbour, Feast of the Sea Fest in Ramsgate today and Labour PPC Will Scobie in video about Manston Airport and Pleasurama if I can get it to work. Mebbe a ramble Michael Childhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09499435016469020417noreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-6520105043172955892014-10-01T21:43:00.464+01:002014-10-01T21:43:00.464+01:00Why would the Kent Health Observatory not know - w...Why would the Kent Health Observatory not know - when their role is to monitor health outcomes in Kent? Why would the EA not know about the risk of pollution when it is their statutory responsibility to monitor it? <br /><br />Why should we believe that a random anonymous commentator on a blog knows more about this than the people whose job it is to monitor?<br /><br />Clearly conspiracies do happen but in order to have any credibility you have to have a lot of facts which are currently missing about geology, pollution monitoring and epidemiology. If you really believe there is a cover up, get proper advice from professionals rather than posting conspiracy theories in blog comments.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12697826755404106727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-91033834400262902562014-10-01T16:57:36.079+01:002014-10-01T16:57:36.079+01:003:33 you re assuming the hospital etc know about t...3:33 you re assuming the hospital etc know about the problem. They may not if the EA are being secretive about the pollutionAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-38292590246819232292014-10-01T15:33:22.594+01:002014-10-01T15:33:22.594+01:00LTP -
As regards your first point, even if what y...LTP -<br /><br />As regards your first point, even if what you say are facts it is irrelevant, given that you'd need detailed knowledge of geology to know where there was likely to be a problem with any pollution. The EA have this expertise, so you are suggesting that there is a conspiracy.<br /><br />As regard your second, I suspect the HPA will only take action when alerted by qualified people, which one assumes are the relevant specialists at QEQM and the public health people. So you are implicating the medical staff and the local authority public health people into your conspiracy.<br /><br />As to your third, I of course have not said that pollution is never related to cancer, but clearly cancer is not always related to pollution. There is a pollution event and there is a cancer cluster, you have added 2 and 2 to make 5 - namely that the latter is caused by the former.<br /><br />As to your last, I doubt that anyone can identify mercury on a beach, least of all unqualified beachcomers. I don't understand what your point about roads has to do with anything.<br /><br />You have therefore implicated a huge number of local authorities in this conspiracy of silence about a pollution event which has caused an enormous cluster of cancer. If there is anything in this claim, you'd need to have a water-tight amount of evidence to back it up - including evidence from geologists, evidence from qualified contaminated land specialists, evidence from public health people and so on. They at very least would have to say that what you say is feasible before there could be any kind of public investigation.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-50633169688750606992014-10-01T10:56:01.629+01:002014-10-01T10:56:01.629+01:00Look at it like this LTP if you really feel that y...Look at it like this LTP if you really feel that you have a valid Thanet issue which makes proper sense outside of normal historical pollution issues across the whole of the UK then start your own blog about it.<br /><br />The reason for this is very simple and boils down to you either stand by what you say and are prepared to put your name to what you say, or you are just making wild conjectures with nothing to back them up and the posting them here as psedondomouse comments which I just don’t have time to validate so I just delete them like I have just done with your last comment. <br /><br />Frankly anyone can comment under any old pseudonym that the moon is made of cheese and then add masses of unsubstantiated reasons why this may be the case, but I have a life to lead and don’t have time to research what may be nonsense or may be the truth or may even be a tangled mixture of both. <br /><br />Personally I have very little interest in digging around for old recriminations and am much more concerned about plans for future industry here being better controlled over the next 20 years.<br /><br />On the U tube front, consider the chalk as most similar to a large bathroom sponge that is wet at the bottom and dry at the top, so I suggest you wander of to your bathroom, wet the bottom of the sponge and apply some oil and some solvent to the top and see what happens. <br />Michael Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09499435016469020417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-75346253270608932102014-10-01T09:34:14.305+01:002014-10-01T09:34:14.305+01:00Michael I regret that you have indulged Strawman f...Michael I regret that you have indulged Strawman fallacy to the point of absurdity. I have a minds eye picture of you in WW2.<br /><br />"Oh we can afford to ignore doodlebugs because there is something more serious out there".<br /><br />You accuse me of misunderstanding that water flow down hill. Ignoring U tube effects and the effects of pumping then apply your gravity argument. There are two ground water contamination sites. One is downhill from the other. Which way does the contamination flow between the two sites.<br /><br />Given that authority demonstrated that it recognised risk at the site of a Water Authority abstraction station were direct abstraction sites at the same or less distance also at risk ? Looking at the safety data on the chemical is there risk from skin absorption ? Does that risk exist for solvent coming out from solution in laundry and argricultural use ? I dunno. Nor would anyone until there is epidemiological inquiry.<br /><br />I am reluctant to say "Blighted" but how long (say compared to Pleasurama) will Thor site be frozen in time ? When will mercury remediation begin ? Will Thor comply with EA recommendations re surface concrete integrity and best remediation technology ?<br /><br />Should Thanet rely on what you "Guess" or on what experts find ? And if experts find there is no health adverse consequence then so be it. But answering people on blogs who assume they already know the answers is condoning fools Michael.<br /><br />The fact is you raised the question on blog whether K Laundry was on direct abstraction. Then YOU left it. Now here is your answer. And somehow you "Guess" that your own original question was without merit ? Laughable<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756811819185119364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-78106525026533886672014-10-01T09:16:26.657+01:002014-10-01T09:16:26.657+01:00Anon 4.03. The reason there is no epidemiologica...Anon 4.03. The reason there is no epidemiological evidence is that there has been no expert inquiry. The fact is that Rumfields water abstraction was switched off in 1993 immediately upon discovery of the Sericol contamination. That is a guideline for the distance at which the experts did recognise a threat. Now look at the distance from Sericol to the two direct abstraction sites Newlands and K Laundry. QED<br /><br />In fact the Kent Health Protection Agency were given a number of names, Northwood area, who had suffered premature stroke or congenital aneurism death. Plus it was suggested there is merit in examining the health histories of workforce at the laundry. With high levels of ectopic pregnancy and polycystic ovary syndrome in Thanet it is not difficult for a layman to suspect a causal effect. Because cyclohexanone is a soluble solvent that acts upon female oestregen biochemistry and can cause foetal damage. <br /><br />The rational thing to do is to promote expert inquiry. To simply state that pollution is never a causation of cancer is pretty stupid anon. Asbestos for example??<br /><br />Beachcombers, as it happens, have reported finding mercury at Margate beaches. The information about the waste drain in the FOI was because it was being posed as a possible route to outfall. And the EA response was that contact should be made with Southern Water. What TDC Building Inspectors required along the Ramsgate Road, for extensions, was that the drain be protected by piers and lintels and reinforcing in the oversite. After the 1987 hurricane TDC realised that many of the extensions along that length of road were on standard footings over the top of the drain. No one says that the drain lacks integrity. Because to draw a conclusion requires first an inquiry. (A point that appears to have evaded you thus far)<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756811819185119364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-45162248484871077622014-09-29T16:03:57.964+01:002014-09-29T16:03:57.964+01:00LTP you'd have a better case if there was any ...LTP you'd have a better case if there was any actual evidence of harm rather than anacodes. That Thanet has high cancer rates is of no relevance to a pollution event. Correlation does not imply causation. <br /><br />Unless you have specific knowledge about the geology, which all you have said here suggests you have not, then there is no case to answer - no clear epidemiological evidence, no geological way that a pollution event could get to an extraction point some miles away and so on and so forth. <br /><br />What you suggest here is a massive conspiracy and I'm afraid other than you I don't see anyone buying it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-13890508319390038842014-09-29T15:38:56.075+01:002014-09-29T15:38:56.075+01:00the funny thing about you Purple Om is you don'...the funny thing about you Purple Om is you don't like anyone challenging you. You are sounding quite boring now, as SEMBOB says all you want is build. Do not worry about how safe it is because you cannot afford to live there so it isn't your problem, is it!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-51534353996294900402014-09-29T14:38:16.072+01:002014-09-29T14:38:16.072+01:00LTP I guess the real answer here is an industrial ...LTP I guess the real answer here is an industrial society both increases life expectancy by its very existence, while at the same time reduces that increased life expectancy with its pollution. The key here is to get the balance right, i.e. no industrial society your life expectancy would have been around 25, with an industrial society this goes up to say 90 and then is knocked back to around 75 because of the associated pollution. My take is that the main problem pollution wise in Thanet is background particulate air pollution caused by the prevailing wind across the uk being westerly, so I guess the best solution would be to stop all those people in southern England driving, cooking and heating their homes, shops and factories. The net of this would of course be to bring life expectancy down to about 30. Of course there are different ways of looking at this problem, your error in misinterpreting the results of your foi seem to relate to your thinking that liquids flow uphill, could I ask you to read it a again and then come to a conclusion that isn’t damaging to your credibility. Michael Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09499435016469020417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-7512523796166469902014-09-29T13:54:03.916+01:002014-09-29T13:54:03.916+01:00Purple Om, I think that in terms of environment an...Purple Om, I think that in terms of environment and technology you will be hard pushed to beat Thanet Earth. But of course we will have to agree to differ because you will never admit that you might be wrong. As for a cue (sic) of people, I don't remember a snooker hall opening recently.<br /><br />The design may look good, but it is in the wrong place. Why not build it on the now defunct Manston runway, where it will be seen and admired from miles around, as were the Richborough cooling towers before their demolition.Still Even More Bemused Of Birchingtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01378876660344475835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-238629183871842592014-09-29T13:47:53.203+01:002014-09-29T13:47:53.203+01:00Om, bit of a tangled web you are weaving here, the...Om, bit of a tangled web you are weaving here, the cliff façade has had two TDC inspections, one in 2005 when I made a fuss about the state of it, this resulted in about £1m being spent on it, and one about three years ago when I made another fuss, this resulted in a schedule of work which wasn’t done and the promise to inspect it every three years. What Manston failed to do at the request of the EA was to get an environmental permit EP, this would have been the first stage, next would have been a planning application for the airport (the airport has never been granted planning consent as an airport which is why it operated on S106), part of the planning application would be an EIA. Michael Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09499435016469020417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-77306269591178065742014-09-29T13:19:30.621+01:002014-09-29T13:19:30.621+01:00Barry do you think that the people who came down t...Barry do you think that the people who came down to the hands around the pleasurama protest knew that FORS intention was to stop any development there, and continuing the blight for at least 5 more years (3 to get it back and 2 to get anything else though planning and built) Or do you think that they were there to protest to get rid of the building site and get something built? The 6 people that I bought down who have nothing to do with FORS just thought they were there to help put pressure on TDC so TDC could put pressure on SFP and they did. Now we have a chance to get rid of SFP and get a long stop date put into a new contract with a good company whose track record is fantastic. With one of the best modem plans I have ever seen that benefits Ramsgate as well as the developer. TDC are going to get the land revalued but this will be hard to pinpoint because of whats going to be built there. The more Ramsgate gets, the less the value of the site ie retail units and hotels are worth less that luxury flats but worth more to Ramsgate's economy. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01312167131325466700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-70155906367265438742014-09-29T12:50:16.655+01:002014-09-29T12:50:16.655+01:00Michael you know that the cliff face has a inspect...Michael you know that the cliff face has a inspection ever 2 years and has had a number of reports in recent years. Manston has never had a EIA in all the time its been an airport.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01312167131325466700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-89386589186700391902014-09-29T12:47:09.244+01:002014-09-29T12:47:09.244+01:00I am still waiting for someone/anyone to prove me ...I am still waiting for someone/anyone to prove me wrong, a better piece of architecture since the 1940 in the whole of Thanet than what's planned for our seafront, surely there must be a cue of people out there who would like to prove me wrong. Nothing at the moment Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01312167131325466700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-52230165150726277692014-09-29T12:09:44.955+01:002014-09-29T12:09:44.955+01:00Anon 11.19. The FOI gives the facts of the Thor ...Anon 11.19. The FOI gives the facts of the Thor situation. And it reveals that the remediation has decades to run. The water abstraction sites are a separate issue relating to Sericol where EA say the problem (Cyclohexanone) will be for the "Foreseeable future". It was Michael who first raised the question of whether K Laundry operates on a direct abstraction licence. Now we have the facts. K Laundry and Newlands Farm have direct abstraction licences. The anecdotal information of some years ago suggested that Northwood has had a cluster of early stroke and aneurism fatalities. Thanet, as a whole, has the highest cancer mortality rates. Specialists previously employed at QEQM have spoken about Thanet's aberrant high level of ectopic pregnancy and I think polycystic ovary.<br /><br />The Kent Health Protection Agency some years ago replied that they were taking the Sericol contamination FOI facts seriously. But there was no political support to put pressure on them for an epidemiological inquiry. <br /><br />Michael it is true that Iris Johnson took legal advice about two weeks ago re the Statutory Reporting Duties of Terrorism Act 2000. This is not about pursuing "Vendettas" but it is about pursuing compliance with law. I think you fully realise that this advice relates to TDC duties at Ramsgate Harbour and, in the broadest strategic context, to Manston. The situation appears to be that three former Labour cllrs and one former Chief Executive have complied with statutory reporting duties as individuals but not on behalf of TDC. And, as you seem to correctly infer, two current tory cllrs and two current Labour cllrs would appear to be in direct breach of the act. <br /><br />One compliance report from a former Labour cllr does concern Thor. Anon 11.19 is attributing questions to me that I never made. A Strawman fallacy. If anon had read the FOI fully they would have seen that EA were thanked for their detailed answer. <br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756811819185119364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-56007930240813492832014-09-29T11:34:06.849+01:002014-09-29T11:34:06.849+01:00I am giving LTP another chance here, hopefully his...I am giving LTP another chance here, hopefully his comments won’t descend in a mixture of vendettas against various Conservative councillors and dubious spam like comments where links say one thing and lead to another.<br /><br />If there is a real point to the EA response it is to make me even more wary about a variety of mixed use industrial companies on the aquifer Manston, a mixture of relaxed planning restrictions in enterprise zones and the same old what looks like a drain tends to be treated like a drain is what worries me the most here.<br /><br />My guess is that some of the mercury that got into the ground on the Thor site was due to workers not understanding that rainwater roof drains are not in fact drains at all but soakaways.<br />Michael Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09499435016469020417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-27662915166176971962014-09-29T11:19:13.064+01:002014-09-29T11:19:13.064+01:00LTP, the FOI simply proves that regular monitoring...LTP, the FOI simply proves that regular monitoring is being done at the site, that THOR is paying for clean up and that there is no direct threat to anyone from the contamination. What basis is there for an enquiry? In what possible sense is this a threat to anyone and how is the responsible regulator failing in its responsibilities?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-49370064260972922312014-09-29T10:52:03.384+01:002014-09-29T10:52:03.384+01:00On the subject of the all too common accusation of...On the subject of the all too common accusation of scaremongering<br /><br /><a href="https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/thor_chemicals_margate_remediati#incoming-565642" rel="nofollow"> The Thor Facts from Environment Agency </a> <br /><br />The response also clarifies that there are TWO direct abstraction sites at Northwood close to the massive Sericol sourced aquifer contamination. IE Sites that have drawn up contaminated water since 1963. And, just as with Pleasurama issues, is there a compelling case for expert inquiry ? In the case of water abstraction inquiry by the Health Protection Agency. In the case of Pleasurama by Environment Agency supervised sea defence survey and cliff face survey. <br /><br />I also think that as yet no one has gained the facts for the failure of the structure of the Marina Pool. Certainly council electricians working on the Marina pool were told it had a structural problem caused by water flow in the chalk below the pool. But just like Sericol. Thor and Pleasurama what is required are the facts. Because Marina Pool may be a useful precedent to take contingency against. <br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756811819185119364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-67403136434701448492014-09-29T10:25:20.474+01:002014-09-29T10:25:20.474+01:00Funny really this was one of the smallest of the R...Funny really this was one of the smallest of the Ramsgate collapses and as you can see from the debris and remaining façade was a concrete and not brick. My guess is that it was caused by water, probably a leaking surface water drain, just like all of the telltale signs are showing up the harbour end of the Pleasurama façade. If you don’t know what I mean here, large damp areas, the paint being forced of the front of the façade by the water behind, cracked areas, bulges and a large amount of vegetation growing on it. Compare this to the bit of the façade the hasn’t got the problem, the bit where the faced has rounded arches, further away from the harbour. Anyway I have added a picture of the 1947 collapse at Pegwell so you can see what I mean by a larger cliff fall, this façade was a mixture of concrete and brick. Michael Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09499435016469020417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-45827714976325212952014-09-29T09:29:22.377+01:002014-09-29T09:29:22.377+01:00A little shy of flood risk assessments and cliff f...A little shy of flood risk assessments and cliff foundation surveys too perhaps. I think saving Manston did have an answer which was to petition KCC to acquire the airport and look for funding and partners for a mix of aviation heritage, regional airport and aviation related light industry. I think this could perhaps have stood a chance of succeeding and wouldn’t necessarily have even gone to a cpo. Now with the discovery park on one table and stuff like airfreight hub and aircraft dismantling on the other, you just have two proposals that may or may not succeed and the cpo legislation bound to come down on the side of the existing owners. What worries me is the council don’t seem to have done the proper things, getting a public consultation going to support spending money based on public opinion, and carrying on spending what looks to a hundred grand of council tax on pursuing a solution that just wont work and has unknown public support. A huge rub being sign the petition to save the airport is one thing and sign the petit on for a freight hub and scrap yard theta you can’t fly off on holiday from is something else entirely. Michael Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09499435016469020417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-43676419285255766872014-09-29T09:18:16.995+01:002014-09-29T09:18:16.995+01:00So if you had your way Purple Om, work on construc...So if you had your way Purple Om, work on construction could begin immediately, if not sooner? Just build a brick wall of sufficient strength first to retain any cliff fall?Still Even More Bemused Of Birchingtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01378876660344475835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-77127865839156299952014-09-29T09:14:04.583+01:002014-09-29T09:14:04.583+01:00Oh I don't know Andy H, the good people of Ram...Oh I don't know Andy H, the good people of Ramsgate had not objection to Manston in 1940.John Holyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02284672912775316883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-29091114299635038412014-09-29T02:03:25.793+01:002014-09-29T02:03:25.793+01:00Well done Chris thanks for pointing that out, The ...Well done Chris thanks for pointing that out, The problem with our fine council is they are a little shy of doing environmental impact assessments (EIA) Just ask the good people of Ramsgate who had to endure Manston for so many years without one...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01312167131325466700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-40871851054107615322014-09-29T01:46:30.326+01:002014-09-29T01:46:30.326+01:00Michael all chalk cliffs will collapse at some sta...Michael all chalk cliffs will collapse at some stage, as they say nothing stronger than gravity. If it were sufficient enough to bring the brick structure down with it then whatever was there would be flattened. Just the same as behind the amusement arcade or anywhere else<br /> A collapse of that magnitude would take something of equal magnitude before the collapse had started, to stop it. If it started moving then it depends how much momentum it was allowed to gather before it was stopped to judge the amount of ballast you would need . As I say its just needlessly worry people. I would worry when you see a dip in the pavement or a crack big enough for you to get your fingers in. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01312167131325466700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-8792111482116419812014-09-28T23:14:58.672+01:002014-09-28T23:14:58.672+01:00Om thinking of your humorous comment about the sca...Om thinking of your humorous comment about the scaffolding I have tacked one of the pictures of the 1958 collapse of the cliff façade at the Paragon in Ramsgate, the banana shaped objects are the RSJs that formed the framework of the building in front of the cliff façade before it collapsed without warning and demolished it. Michael Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09499435016469020417noreply@blogger.com