tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post5333469454622841785..comments2024-03-13T10:32:22.656+00:00Comments on thanetonline: Thanet District Council censorship, how far can they go?Michael Childhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09499435016469020417noreply@blogger.comBlogger95125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-46765390816861500432013-02-28T20:57:32.054+00:002013-02-28T20:57:32.054+00:00Yes of course I can see how the use of the name &q...Yes of course I can see how the use of the name "Red Hall" can inflame old rivalries. My sympathies chime with their anti over-development stance, and, anti secrecy, of course. I am not really in a position to comment much more than that?<br /><br />In my own dealings with the authorities over equality issues, I am occasionally reminded that I need to take care over whose views I represent, since some of my communications goes out to many different organisations. The same caution surely needs to be applied with planning issues, when decisions can sometimes be viewed as being forced upon the local population against their will, because they have been decided in relative secrecy.Solo Gayshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11633808604885716801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-17724267275271953892013-02-28T20:17:44.786+00:002013-02-28T20:17:44.786+00:00A handful of her usual followers, several of whom ...A handful of her usual followers, several of whom do not even live in Broadstairs, who seem to have rehearsed an orchestrated attempt to hijack the question time at the expense of the genuine residents. As for the editorial imbalance you seem to be forgetting that this is a politically motivated paper where the editorial team of Norman Thomas and Christine Tongue are most unlikely to want an alternative view to that they are attempting to circulate. Allan Mallinsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-65046891532550979762013-02-28T18:04:30.814+00:002013-02-28T18:04:30.814+00:00Allan
I am sure there is much we can learn from t...Allan<br /><br />I am sure there is much we can learn from the example of Broadstairs Town Council here in Ramsgate. Since this issue of bias has now been raised, I hope a solution can be found to editorial imbalance.<br /><br />As for Christine Tongue, I am sure she would not be so foolish as to raise items of concern to her local Town Council without the backing of at least a credible amount of residents?Solo Gayshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11633808604885716801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-88544176153992611612013-02-28T18:02:28.713+00:002013-02-28T18:02:28.713+00:00S G, me publishing an article in TW was your idea ...S G, me publishing an article in TW was your idea and certainly not mine for I would not grace such a biased rag. As for class warfare, it is something perpetuated by the far left, Socialist Workers, Militant and Scargill's Real Labour, all things to be found in Driver's CV, and much loved of Tongue and co. Not my scene at all and no better in my view than the likes of BNP on the other extreme.<br /><br />You are right that this post is about the seafront development in Ramsgate and the search for information, but it diverted when people, foolishly in my view, started proclaiming Driver as the knight errant in this crusade. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-47610324445359589262013-02-28T17:54:07.020+00:002013-02-28T17:54:07.020+00:00Whatever, Peter, but it was a disciplinary hearing...Whatever, Peter, but it was a disciplinary hearing and nothing to do with him rattling cages. Still think people who think Driver is the answer to their prayers have got a nasty shock coming.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-15744973432081385212013-02-28T17:51:16.170+00:002013-02-28T17:51:16.170+00:00Well, being born in the sixties, I find it difficu...Well, being born in the sixties, I find it difficult to get a handle on this old class warfare. I thought the purpose of this post is about how far will TDC go in their censorship to do with a particular Development in Thanet.<br /><br />Obviously, I have no way of knowing at this present moment in time Tom, if you really would like to write a piece for Thanet Watch, and if you do try to get an article published, would you care to present us with evidence that you have tried?Solo Gayshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11633808604885716801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-34508192199299220422013-02-28T17:42:30.404+00:002013-02-28T17:42:30.404+00:00No Tom, he was called in for publishing part of a ...No Tom, he was called in for publishing part of a "secret" document. You're obviously confusing him with Simon Moores when you said he was called in because of "attacks on the person of other councillors". Peter Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06283534498743254609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-43983403998035990062013-02-28T17:37:52.881+00:002013-02-28T17:37:52.881+00:00Solo Gays, just noticed your comment about the Red...Solo Gays, just noticed your comment about the Red Hall people perhaps having some beef about the make up of the Broadstairs Town Council. As far as I can see, Broadstairs is probably the most successful of our Thanet towns, still retaining a good tourist trade by not trying to be anything it is not, has some well run and increasingly popoular events and a generally good satisfaction level amongst its residents. That speaks well of its town council.<br /><br />That said council is democratically elected and so what possible beef could Christine Tongue and co have. Obviously the council has a right of centre flavour, with just two Labour members, and there is no councillor from either political extreme. It is exactly what one would expect in a small fairly affluent seaside resort. Are you, therefore, suggesting that perhaps the more extreme views of the Red Hall fraternity should somehow be respresented, should the town have an encampment somewhere in its midst of anti-capitalist protestors or maybe some of the town's middle class elderly residents should be transported somewhere else and replaced with a collection of society's less fortunate beings. That should help balance things up a bit and 'transportation' should appeal to the extremist views already oft expressed within TW like officers in HM Forces being aristocratic idiots.Allan Mallinsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-3277255816669672582013-02-28T17:29:55.655+00:002013-02-28T17:29:55.655+00:00Tom,
I wonder if Christine Tongue understands, or...Tom,<br /><br />I wonder if Christine Tongue understands, or even cares, that some of her aristocratic idiots won the VC while barely in their twenties. Who was her Uncle Jack anyway. I despise people like this. John Holyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02284672912775316883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-17239692721554534602013-02-28T17:17:06.931+00:002013-02-28T17:17:06.931+00:00That is the whole point, S G, my take would never ...That is the whole point, S G, my take would never get published in their magazine for it would present a picture they do not want to see.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-44889981208659817592013-02-28T15:14:07.307+00:002013-02-28T15:14:07.307+00:00Well, if it is any consolation Tom, I should like ...Well, if it is any consolation Tom, I should like to see your take on things represented in their magazine. Someone with first-hand experience always has more credibility.<br /><br />Perhaps their beef is about the make-up of the Broadstairs Town Council for some reason?<br /><br />Solo Gayshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11633808604885716801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-83162062056581836372013-02-28T14:58:53.284+00:002013-02-28T14:58:53.284+00:00He was called in over his encouragement of vandali...He was called in over his encouragement of vandalism and his attacks on the person of other councillors. If there is any lying down going on around here, it is the people who look on Driver and is ilk as some kind of saviours and champions of democracy. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-19478464737865287802013-02-28T14:55:32.341+00:002013-02-28T14:55:32.341+00:00Solo Gays, in the same rag they also dismiss brave...Solo Gays, in the same rag they also dismiss brave men as aristocratic idiots just because Christine Tongue's Uncle Jack says so in his memories of WWII. I have watched the performance of these people at the annual public meeting of the Broadstairs & St. Peter's Town Council where they ask question after question, often the same question, and exclude other members of the public from the opportunity of doing likewise in the process.<br />If they are your scene we are evidently p[oles apart in our views.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-72655266244679441212013-02-28T13:23:49.310+00:002013-02-28T13:23:49.310+00:00Tom
He must have rattled some cages for them to dr...Tom<br />He must have rattled some cages for them to drag him in for a dressing down.<br /> <br />I didn't realise that Par Adua etc really meant lie down and let them trample all over youTim Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09360638835659673415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-45234436405812391462013-02-28T13:10:54.768+00:002013-02-28T13:10:54.768+00:00Tom, Cllr Driver has raised the profile of the abs...Tom, Cllr Driver has raised the profile of the absurd decisions behind Pleasurama that has cost us all so dearly. I don't think anyone would expect any more of him.<br /><br />As for the "Red Hall Mob" as you call them; Like any group of any political persuasion, any member of the public can experience exasperation at failures to see problems from as many different perspectives as possible, and wish a little more care was taken to get balanced representation when organising public meetings. I would say in their defence, in their latest publication "Thanet Watch", they implore us to become more involved as "Municipal Pests" to get things improved. They also recommend doing things as part of groups and forging alliances as a way of getting noticed and improving the area. Solo Gayshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11633808604885716801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-74521506173262793162013-02-28T12:23:06.934+00:002013-02-28T12:23:06.934+00:00Some support, Tim, is counter productive and the d...Some support, Tim, is counter productive and the danger with a clown like Driver is that he reduces the campaign to a laughing stock, easily dismissed by those that choose to do so. Take a look at his blog and still tell me this is someone who can be taken seriously.<br /><br />If you want further proof, how could any serious politician involve himself with the Red Hall mob in Broadstairs. Of all the cranky left wing fanatics they take the biscuit and are generally laughed at around the town. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-30393521723821211982013-02-28T12:15:29.357+00:002013-02-28T12:15:29.357+00:00"Take support where it is offered if you want..."Take support where it is offered if you want to succeed" A BBC moment Chris? Isn't that what is happening with Cllr Driver - he is offering support (of a sort) and people are taking itTim Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09360638835659673415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-53649049530217056222013-02-27T13:27:44.406+00:002013-02-27T13:27:44.406+00:00Chris OK lets’ try and stick to something tangible...Chris OK lets’ try and stick to something tangible here and avoid my tendencies towards socialism and failures to visit and cover such museums and galleries you think I should have done. <br /><br />I hope you will agree that the devastation surrounding Ramsgate’s main sands outweighs any problems associated with Broadstairs and that it is action that is required now and not rhetoric.<br /><br />So starting with the Pleasurama issue and what I take as an offer from you to help resolve it.<br /><br />My take being that running down the amusements and attempting to acquire the freehold extends back over 20 years now and with the benefit of hindsight there are things that could have been done differently by both parties.<br /><br />I would say that taking the period from when SFP appeared on the scene, ostensibly as partners in a Whitbread scheme, the councils main error was a failure to review the situation when Whitbread pulled out.<br /><br />My guess is this happened under the Labour administration so you won’t be able to help much here.<br /><br />In the period after this we had a Conservative administration, this started with the planning application with myself and others pointing out the height problem and being told that we were too late to object to the plans.<br /><br />I don’t think there is much that can be done about this, the plans were passed, I still think that they should not have been and the developer should have been told to go away and design something that fitted in the available space.<br /><br />I think where the Conservatives really went off the rails with this one was in 2009 when they decided to carry on with this developer against officer advice. Talking to various council officers it is because of this decision that the council now faces the possibility of considerable liability if they try to get the site back.<br /><br />Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but since that decision the information that the developers bank SBP that produced the underlying fanatical credibility and the evidence of the only major investor, Wetmore the hotelier that was to invest £6m, didn’t actually exist, has come to light.<br /><br />There doesn’t seem to be any evidence that Wetmore exited either, so obviously the question to the Conservative group, is would they have gone ahead and issued the variation had they realised this.<br /><br />If the answer is that they wouldn’t have approved the variation, then this casts doubts both on the validity of the variation and the council’s liability, so I guess if you do want to help it is this area that you could. <br />Michael Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09499435016469020417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-61417634830870490812013-02-27T09:35:02.342+00:002013-02-27T09:35:02.342+00:00You could not have illustrated my main point more ...You could not have illustrated my main point more precisely, Michael, thank you. In September 2012 you were offered just such help through a press release regarding Pleasurama, supporting much of what you wanted. You treated the release with contempt and incredulity - something you recently denied, but go back and have a look - even stating publicly you had contacted a shadow cabinet member to check it was real. The reason? You could not understand how there could be such a difference between what was done in power to what was stated in opposition. That is my point about opposition entirely. It does not have the freedom to oppose everything, unless like the Labour party you are prepared to ditch virtually everything you said in opposition as soon as you have to make real decisions - something mercifully Ian Driver is unlikely to ever have to do. You forgive Labour their tawdry changes absolutely, but savage conservatives if you feel they do the same thing. What do we learn? Its not worth supporting Michael Child in his views, cos he will always twist that support to be used against us. I said to you earlier on this series of comments you need to ditch being so political and take support where it is offered if you wish to succeed.<br /><br />Re Broadstairs; it has its own 12 plus year saga around the community centre, which Labour regularly use as a political football without any sense of irony or guilt. It does not involve sea front, but does involve a range of poorly maintained council buidings which blight areas of the town. Once again, you will simply pass this by as being not in Ramsgate.<br /><br />Finally, I notice from your blog you do not seem to have visited the Maritime Museum since it's free opening period. For someone who campaigned so strongly to ignore the realities of its cost and benefit implications that seems a little strange. Just a thought about the reality of local support....Chris Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04022576946890382047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-39553895170052079632013-02-26T19:46:07.088+00:002013-02-26T19:46:07.088+00:00Chris I think the problem here is much more about ...Chris I think the problem here is much more about the nature of opposition, we seem to have a situation where the Conservative group seem to see themselves as the leadership in waiting rather than having any real role as an opposition.<br /><br />I am afraid a press release about once a month saying Labour done it wrong isn’t very convincing.<br /><br />So assuming you took my point in the previous comment: “Let us say in Broadstairs the whole area behind the main sands was council owned and had turned into a 20 year wreck, that Broadstairs Pavillion was council owned and derelict and the townspeople were suffering from the resultant economic problems.”<br /><br />Can we look to any of the Conservative group to offer us positive help with these problems? I would quite understand if you don’t want to do this, but you need to understand that at the moment there is a vacuum caused by the absence of any other opposition voice and Cllr Driver is filling it.<br /><br />I wouldn’t want you to consider me a Labour supporter, I think you will find that I and the other local businessmen who are trying to run retail businesses in Ramsgate have formed into Marxist Leninist cells, as a result of eight years of a Conservative administration running the buildings that the council own that once formed the foundation of our tourist industry. <br />Michael Childhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09499435016469020417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-82553094508326543852013-02-26T19:45:42.295+00:002013-02-26T19:45:42.295+00:00What I feel is sad about this situation Chris, Is...What I feel is sad about this situation Chris, Is that through Ian Drivers' meeting with the CEO, Harvey Patterson, and Clive Hart, an opportunity was perhaps missed?<br /><br />As a blogging community(and I know I am the new kid on the block), I feel sad we were not able to establish a coherent voice to put our concerns to them, with Ian Driver.<br /><br />The tunnels, and trying to sustain a joined up marketing approach to the visitor economy, is something both parties have lent support to. And a safe, transparent, development at Pleasurama seems key to all this.<br /><br />Maybe it will all work out somehow, but certainly I am not inclined to say anymore. It seems to me that Clive Hart needs to speak to Michael urgently.Solo Gayshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11633808604885716801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-42094878179988778622013-02-26T19:38:50.299+00:002013-02-26T19:38:50.299+00:00Michael, that Broadstairs has no history of long d...Michael, that Broadstairs has no history of long drawn out developments or contracts with obscure offshore companies is perhaps down to the fact that the town has always had its own council dating back to long before TDC was formed. Generally its councillors seem to to operate, without all the political infighting that goes on over in Margate, for the good of the town.<br /><br />As for, Tim, it is not just the left wing politics of Driver that I find objectionable, but the way he has demeaned the office of councillor, reduced TDC meetings to shambolic shouting matches where he grandstands to his hoi polloi following in the public galleries and attaches accusations of homophobia or vested interest to anyone who opposes his view. If that is what you want as your champion all I can do is wish you the best of luck.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-28526544278371598772013-02-26T18:16:29.862+00:002013-02-26T18:16:29.862+00:00The Labour Party locally is busy delivering all so...The Labour Party locally is busy delivering all sorts of promises, uncosted for the medium term, and often uncosted or with hidden costs right now. Eventually someone else always has to come alonng and mop up that mess left behind, at national and local levels, usually becoming unpopular for the decisions they have to make, which the Labour party freely ducks and pushes away. That is the difference between fantasy opposition and practical understanding. In opposition the Labour Party criticised the number and pay rates of senior officers at TDC, then when in power made a disastrous and expensive new director appointment. In opposition the Labour party criticised the level of councillors allowances; then raised it as soon as in office. In opposition the Labour Party claimed they would cut out waste; then struggled in power not to raise council taxes even though they had more money through the new homes bonus than they ever expected.<br /><br />Michael will of course have none of this, he buys into the gesture politics of putting Ramsgate first, and refuses when ever invited to weigh the costs and benefits of politically motivated decision, such as the free pass into the main shopping and tourist car park in Ramsgate.<br /><br />The Labour Party have played the politics of their first year very well, making all the right noises and nods to popular causes. The costs of their decisions are hidden and ignored - the closing of the port to animal exports against all revious legal advice; the talking shops of economic policy whilst businesses suffer and refuse to invest because of their anti business stance; and just look now at any question regarding the possible sums to Margate Caves and Ramsgate Tunnels. Mike Jarvis and I funded the original investigation and feasibility for Margate Caves. There were many conversations about the costs, and negotiations to get the costs matching the funds. There is little evidence visible of such careful weighing of public money in Labours grants tothese possibly very welcome developments; nor whay happens when the money granted runs out, and other sources have to be found. In Cliftonville, Labour was happy to sit on their hands and see two fundamentally important social welfare projects fail; quiet hard work saved one, but with no help from a Labour administration. Follow the money rather than the rhetoric, and you may conclude there are less honourable perspectives on display here than you would like to admit. But thats all about grown up and real decision making, is it not? Way beyond the experience of the child mayor of margate, who has never had to compete for a proper job, just had daddy fix it for him, and his cohorts can manage.Chris Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04022576946890382047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-22312237440228390922013-02-26T18:14:29.429+00:002013-02-26T18:14:29.429+00:00The wishes of the electorate is a difficult, and s...The wishes of the electorate is a difficult, and sometimes dangerous, thing to get right. It is a loose phrase at the best of times, and as used here represents the wishes of those activists and commentators represented on this blog, and other blogs. Discovering, and adhering to the wishes of the electorate, would have seen the reintroduction of hanging; much more closed borders; an end to third world aid; and the halving of many benefits; if the fingers on the pulse of measuring popular opinion are to be believed. <br /><br />The tossing of these views into any discussion is calculated to simply close off real rational debate, not because the electorate may not have real views, but many of those views defy the economics available to those in power. The NHS is the classic example, any reform is attacked by luddite views harking back to the cottage hospitals of the fifties - which were far less effective in treating and saving lives than our current, fewer, hi tech variants. The Turner Contemporary, for all its success was unpopular with much of the electorate for a long time. As a voter and traveller, I always felt the switching of the high speed line from Waterloo to St Pancras was a mistake, until I used the new service and realised just how much better it now opened the whole country up for visitors and others. <br /><br />In this debate, the benefit of hindsight, and ideas which will have been looked at and costed as impossible make sense here on a blog. Real decisions are always much harder to get right, and the costs of those are often much greater than expected or predicted. Why are the conservatives rather more circumspect in their criticisms than Ian Driver? They have already, and probably will again, have to deliver elements of this within the contracts and arrangements that are on the ground. Ian Driver has the freedom to acknowledge and encourage all to criticise, safe in the knowledge he may never have to deliver. Something Liberal Democrats are recently discovering about the difference between fantasy opposition politics and the straitjackets of real decision. <br /><br />Chris Wellshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04022576946890382047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3575321478441277410.post-20805174340523424022013-02-26T17:50:57.834+00:002013-02-26T17:50:57.834+00:00Tom
If we in Ramsgate wait for a Conservative to t...Tom<br />If we in Ramsgate wait for a Conservative to take up the cudgel on our behalf we'll still be waiting when Hell freezes over. And given the ingrained adherence to the Party line exhibited by the Labour specimens in the borough, that goes for them as well. So we're left with Driver. You have offered not one constructive thought on this vexing problem and you disdained to answer Michael's allegory regarding Viking Bay and the Pavilion. I loath Driver's politics and what his ilk did to this country in the 70s - damage that we still feel today - but I also detest the gaping hole in our sea front and the idea that speculative land bankers are trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes, with or without any local assistance. If he is the only local politician willing to try and get to the bottom of this mess then so be it - wishing him success in this matter does not make me a MarxistTim Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09360638835659673415noreply@blogger.com