I have just put up the press release about this see http://thanetpress.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/klm-royal-dutch-airlines-connects-kent.html
and will do my best to explain the whys and wherefores.
I think the main reason for this is that KLM Royal Dutch
Airlines which is also Air France at the top of the company, has no main
airport hub in the UK.
I think they are unable to compete with British Airways for
flight slots at Heathrow so have gone down the road of ferrying passengers from
regional airports to their main hub airports in Amsterdam and Paris.
They are already using 17 departure points in the UK:
Aberdeen, Bristol, Birmingham, Cardiff, Durham-Tees Valley, Edinburgh, Glasgow,
Humberside, Inverness, Leeds-Bradford, London City, London Heathrow,
Manchester, Manston, Newcastle, Norwich and Southampton.
So I don’t think this heralds the start of a huge expansion
of Manston Airport by a major operator, on the other hand it does look as though
it may finally be something viable and useful to the local economy from Manston
Airport.
Manston operator Infratil has reported a loss of Aus$17
million for the six months to September, after it wrote down the value of its
British Airports and other assets.
Last year the company posted a Aus$50m surplus for the same
period.
So I would guess they have an even stronger imperative to get rid of Manston as soon as they reasonably can, as I have said before my main concern here is that they have decided not to get the Manston environmental standards up to the level thrashed out with the Environment Agency, presumably because they don’t want to make the investment in an airport they are trying to sell.
So I would guess they have an even stronger imperative to get rid of Manston as soon as they reasonably can, as I have said before my main concern here is that they have decided not to get the Manston environmental standards up to the level thrashed out with the Environment Agency, presumably because they don’t want to make the investment in an airport they are trying to sell.
One thing about this issue that I find puzzling it is the online survey getting over 9,000 results. This is manly because I understand web presence and people’s reluctance to fill in online forms, I understand from my own webstats how many people would look at a post about Manston Airport, be likely to go to the airport’s website and fill in a form.
For myself I am hoping this will bring more customers to my bookshop in Ramsgate, this isn’t as far fetched as it sounds as I already have a considerable European customer base..
Incidentally I notice both Clive Hart and Laura Sandys are supporting this on FaceBook and Twitter.
6 months and they'll be gone.
ReplyDeleteFuther details from Infatil are on the BBC Scotland web site no sign of any offers for airports. The article indicates the price for Manston is now £7.6 millions and it lost £2 millions last year.
ReplyDeleteIf I win the euro millions tonight I will buy it!
It will be interesting to see how many people come back for a second time to sit and wait at schipol for a connection for 4 hours in eitther direction.
ReplyDeleteGood luck to KLM though. I hope they hit it off with the airports new owners, and I hope they continue the service longer than anything else that's used Manston.
Michael, how can an air service effectively outsourcing flights to holland be good for the local economy? Or the wider economy? While the rest of the south east argues about hub capacity, KLM steal passengers and therefore tax revenue from airports up the road.
ReplyDeleteNewe Zealand company supports Franco/Dutch company to export uk tax revenue to holland. Great work KCC.
I love the negative comments on here - wouldn't it be great to spend Christmas with these grey people! Victor Meldrew eat your heart out.
ReplyDeleteOn a more positive note, anyone wishing to give more serious consideration to what's happening may like to read this press release which gives some background on our new operator and their intentions.
Didn't spot anything about Manston in the above press release. What I have spotted is that KLM/Air France lost £700 millions in the 3 months to the end of June.The other thing that puzzles me is why the service cant be up within a month. Could it be that they are just taking 5 months testing the market and will pull the plug if ticket sales dont take off?
DeleteCould be that KLM don't have a spare $80 million aircraft sitting in the car park or could be that they have to integrate other routes to give it a full day's work.
DeleteYou're right about the press release not mentioning Manston, but it does mention a whole host of worldwide destinations you will be able to connect to from Manston.
I give it a couple of days before the "No KLM Flights" group is up and running citing all kinds of made up "facts" so that these planes don't have to fly over poor Tarquin's house.
ReplyDeleteWhy can't local people get behind this venture ? Is it a Thanet trait to be negative about everything ?
......there is not an option to book flights to or from Manston on KLMs website.
ReplyDeleteI thought they were supposed to be on there today?
I can't see the market for Amsterdam though. Surely Thanet has got more weed being grown and smoked here than by our Dutch cousins?
I've just tried as well. Although MSE (Manston in Biggles-speak) is in the airport dropdown you get a nomatch error when you press search. Will try again later
DeleteI got:
DeleteKent (Manston Airport) - Amsterdam (Schiphol) - Return
Departure Sat 3 Aug 13 - Return Fri 27 Sep 13
Modify your search
Departure Saturday 3 August 2013Show flights
Price Departure Arrival Travel time Operated by Flight number
GBP 4906:35 Kent08:35 Amsterdam1h00KLMKL1516Details
GBP 4910:40 Kent12:35 Amsterdam0h55KLMKL1520Details
Taxes, surcharges and booking fee included (credit card surcharge may apply).
Next dayLowest price on this page
Return Friday 27 September 2013Show flights
Price Departure Arrival Travel time Operated by Flight number
GBP 6010:10 Amsterdam10:05 Kent0h55KLMKL1519Details
GBP 6020:50 Amsterdam20:45 Kent0h55KLMKL1523Details
Taxes, surcharges and booking fee included (credit card surcharge may apply).
Next dayLowest price on this page
Convert amount with the Currency Converter
More information about the fare structure
A low fare or greater flexibility? The choice is yours.
Price departure flightGBP 49.00
Price return flightGBP 60.00
Total price for 1 adultGBP 109.00
Taxes, surcharges and booking fee included (credit card surcharge may apply).
Still get nomatch for MSE when I try using mobile Opera, even using your dates of travel. Their booking system will accept a mobile Opera request for the 0630 flight from LHR that day for £132. Will flash up the laptop later.
DeleteI've just checked KLM's flights from Norwich, which is about the same flight time as Manston from Schiphol. They have two morning flights - 0620 (£137) and 0945 (£187).
ReplyDeleteTheir smallest plane seats over 250 people so they are hoping to ship out 500+ a day, 3500 a week, 182000 a year.
As for popping into your shop Michael. I hate to burst your bubble but what gives you that idea.? If they're catching an 0620ish flight they will have to check in around 0530 so if they're not local they're going to come down here the evening before and stay at the Holiday Inn Express, conveniently located on the Thanet Way close (?) to the airport. I don't think they'll be venturing into Ramsgate whilst they're there.
Don't get me wrong, I wish this venture well. I just don't see this as a solution to our local problems. KLM have said that it will create 28 jobs, but how many of them will be local. Their airport manager will be imported and other roles may also come from outside. It would help to allay suspicion if they were to come clean on what these 28 jobs are.
Tim it always surprises me how many people divert on route somewhere to visit the bookshop, how often some vessels crew are looking at the maritime section or some flight crew working their way through the aviation books in here for that matter.
DeleteI post books off to all over the world and it is surprising to me how many of these international customers turn up in the shop, when they are what they consider to be in the area.
But I think you main point here is the airport does fail to communicate effectively with local people.
Good point, Michael, for I know of a chap who was over from Zimbabwe visiting friends in both Minster and Edinburgh, who still found time to locate and find the model railway shop in Whitstable to get a part for a train he was restoring.
DeleteNegativity is a big problem in Thanet, but then it is everywhere from noisy minorities. I am sure most people in Thanet would like to see the area prosper to offer better job prospects all round and, if Manston can be part of that, then fine. There are, however, a few who want no change and will come up with every conceivable argument and statistic to support their case. It should be remembered though that they are a minority and, as such, should not be allowed to spoil the place for the majority.
ReplyDeleteMichael mentions the 9,000 who responded to the on line survey showing interest in using these KLM flights, not a massive number out of Thanet's some 130,000 souls, but more than four times as many as supported the 'No to Night Flights' one conducted by TDC, which was claimed as an overwhelming response.
As ever all the statistics are being banded about showing how non profitable Manston is, but as I have said on this issue several times before, if it really cannot be made to work financially it will ultimately close. Then the antis can have their gloomy party, but in the meantime let some of us try to be positive and give it our support. Who knows, one major player may draw in others leading to a successful regional airport as exist in many places elsewhere in the UK.
Tom. The Buchanan questionnaire had no means of removing duplications. I could have sat down with the Post Office list of local postcodes and created 9000 responses myself. It also made no mention of cost - I suspect that people were expecting a £10 budget airline fare rather than the £150 to £200 one that KLM are offering from Norwich at the moment. Finally, if those 9000 were so enthusiastic why didn't they shout down the NNF responders to the Council consultation?
DeleteOne useful side effect is that Cllrs Alexandreou and Gibson have been effectively cast adrift by their leader's about turn.
All true, Tim, but I do feel the proposal to offer flights from Manston was always likely to generate more interest than a TDC conducted, and not particularly well publicised, consultation over night flights. As you well know, small groups of activists are much better at getting their vote out than the great silent majority.
DeleteYes, I would agree with you over numbers in theory, but Manston still has a more densely populated catchment area than several other successful regional airports one could name. Add the fact that the journey times to Gatwick and Heathrow seem to get longer, plus those odd horror days on the M25 when folk miss their flights, and Manston has to be a potentially better option for people all round Kent rather than just Thanet.
Whatever, as you so rightly say, the illustrious leader seems to have abandoned a couple of his anti Manston councillors, no doubt fearful of being seen as negative to an opportunity and allowing the Conservatives to take all the glory.
The question was a bit loaded too:
Delete“If your choice of destination was available from a smaller 'hassle free' airport like Manston or from a large London airport like Gatwick or Heathrow which would you prefer? Manston Airport London Airport.”
But no, I just don’t believe these figures either, 9,000 people filling in the online form just isn’t realistic.
The question was also posed and moderated by Manston Airport. There was no independent scrutiny of the results and no way of telling whether negative (in Mr Buchanan's eyes) responses made it to the final tally. The whole exercise was deeply flawed and should be discounted. I think I would have believed it more if they had claimed 3000 respondents but I, like Michael, don't believe 9000.
DeleteAn over simplification of the question, Michael, which included such as whether one would use the flights, what destinations from Manston one had used in the past and so on. Sure, some folk could have voted several times, as indeed they could have done on the TDC consultation, but you did not question that result.
DeletePerhaps a more even handed approach would not go amiss, but then, even Aunty is not exempt from bias so why should you be, Michael. I certainly am not.
Tom are you really suggesting that 9,000 people looked at all the detail there, the survey is still online, so anyone who is a bit lost here, I won’t put the link in Google KLM Manston and find it through the airport website, then imagine that many people going through the palaver.
DeleteIt’s the old problem with the airport, being credible, that is, like the perfectly calm day when planes fly low and loudly over Ramsgate, with us all knowing that they are supposed to use the preferred route, which doesn’t overfly the town.
They need to build up some trust.
Tom
DeleteAt what point does a small group of activists become a silent majority? From what you have said it appears to be somewhere between 3000 and 9000.
KLM have said that their plans do not include night flights (unless you want to quibble about the 0635 flight) so the NNF people have nothing to complain about.
Schiphol does not allow flying between 2300 and 0600 so presumably KLM are used to working within this restriction.
Whatever, but it would seem KLM were happy with the response level or are we to assume they are complete commercial idiots. Mind you, I suppose they could not possibly be run by people as switched on and clued up on financial viability as our great Thanet blogging community.
DeleteBy the way, Tim, 3000 to 9000 are your figures. I compared the airports 9000 claimed response with the 2000 negatives TDC got to their consultation. Surely then the silent majority is the rest of the 130,000 in Thanet who did not vote!
Tim, check out the flight and noise restrictions applicable at Schipol and you will find that night is also covered albeit with limitations on thrust levels on climb and reverse thrust on landing. Evidently there is not a total ban, simply a normal operating period with some exception like most airports except dear old Thanet. What a sad bunch of NIMBYs forever festering in a decrepid little backwater we must appear to the outside world when reading our blogsites.
DeleteTom, Tim, I have just put up the Conservative Group press release about this and they have fallen in to the same trap as Tom has, which frankly doesn’t do their local credibility any good at all.
DeleteOn the one hand we have a council accredited consultation about night flights, where all the accepted respondents had to provide addresses which the council verifies, all of the unverified responses being rejected.
On the other hand we have an unverified consultation that anyone can respond to as many times as they like, the results of which I don’t think anyone but the most gullible would believe.
The problem here once again is one of credibility and a reasonable ability to communicate.
Looking at the airport form a purely economic point of view, the airport operator is subsidizing it to the tune of about 2,000,000 per year, this is about the same as the subsidy for The Turner Contemporary, which is affording some economic benefits locally.
Obviously an airport unlike an art gallery has a two sided, there are economic downsides as well as benefits, the trick here is to try and reap the benefits without the downsides if you can.
What the airport were asking for was for us to agree to all of the downsides in terms of night flights associated with a major airport hub, without any linkage to benefits in the form of aircraft activity.
Tom. Do you really think that the council should have agreed to a night flights allocation comparable to that enjoyed by a major airport, without any of the economic benefits of a major airport like Schipol?
It's neither TDC or KIA who have decided to run the flights, it is KLM, the world's 8th largest airline who carried over 75 million passengers last year. At a guess I would say they know more about the job than any of the contributors to this blog.
DeleteMichael, do you think Manston needs to get as big as Schiphol before allowing restricted night flights? I would suggest that in the real world things need to happen the other way round.
We have a MAJOR OPERATOR wanting to run scheduled flights out of Manston. It simply doesn't get much better than this and still the nimby brigade knock it. If that's not anti Manston I don't know what is.
I'm not aware that the "nimby brigade" are knocking this. Pop over to the nnf blog and you'll find nothing against this, not even a comment about the 0635 flight. There are some serious reservations about the trustworthiness of KIA (remember the underhand dealings with Air Iran)and TDC and some concerns about how KLM are going to fill these planes. But no-one has said this is a bad thing. If Discovery Park does take off then Manston will be ideally placed and good luck to them. The real reactionaries here are those who think nnf is anti-Manston. Tbh passenger take offs at 0200 are highly unlikely any way; no-one will ever be able to persuade the train companies to provide a service at that time.
DeleteConstantly questioning the integrity and credibility of KIA, questioning the validity of consultations etc. is hardly positive and does no good for the area.
DeleteI wish them well.
ReplyDeleteSo do I. I'm just not sure that the numbers stack up.
DeleteOn another point, I thought the current 106 agreement bans scheduled flights at night, i.e. between 11pm and 7pm.
ReplyDeleteIt does seem to say that, here is a link to the 106
Deleteagreement http://michaelsbookshop.com/laptop1112/id4.htm
perhaps I have misunderstood it, would anyone like to clarify this situation.
Here is the answer from the council to that one, which seems reasonable to me:
DeleteAccording to the S106
‘The owner shall not be obliged to prepare a Night-time Flying Noise Policy where flight movements during night-time will involve:
departures to European destinations or arrivals from North America by solely passenger carrying aircraft scheduled to occur between 0600 and 0700 on any day where the aircraft involved in the operation have a noise classification of Quota Count 4 or less; or
humanitarian mercy or emergency flights by relief organisations on not more than 12 occasions during any calendar year.’
On this basis the new flights are within the parameters of the S106.
Tom
ReplyDeleteSorry to see you fall into the local blogging habit of falling back on personal insult when someone doesn't agree wholeheartedly with you. If you look elsewhere on this posting you will see that on several occasions I have expressed support for the KLM venture so the nimby accusation appears a bit off the mark. Still, as a Navy man we always said the Army couldn't shoot straight.
Just to make sure you get the message. I support this venture. My worry is that I trust neither TDC nor Charles Buchanan. I very much doubt that KLM paid much attention to the latter's "consultation" - they will have carried out their research (anonymously) long before announcing their interest.
KLM are carrying out their research from now until April 2nd. In the meanwhile they dont have to spend big sums of money, just adding a schedule from Manston to their web site. No new buildings, no staff to recruit or train from the local job queue. And if bookings are not up to the mark there will be no service, they will just offer refunds or alternative flights from the London and Essex airports. No risk to KLM and anyone looking to purchase Manston will no doubt see the contract. If it had been a long term binding contract then yesterdays press release from Infratil concerning the sale would have been a bit more upbeat and the price would not have droped to just £7.6 millions, a bit of a loss on the £20 millions paid.
DeleteTim, the NIMBY comment was directed more at the anti fraternity in general and most certainly not you in particular. Oh, and to be correct by the way, I was a Rockape, an RAF soldier, rather than a full blown brown job. That said, like the Royal Marines, we did spend a lot of time with the army.
DeleteMichael, the TDC consultation verification was limited only by different email sources. Someone having access to several email addresses could have voted from each one and used neighbours or friends addresses. I voted in it and nobody checked out I was genuine. Think you tend to see the present regime through rather rose tinted specs.
Tom sorry to say you are just wrong about this, the council accredited consultation data means real physical addresses, not email addresses, the following is copied directly from the council’s website:
Delete“2,275 responses were received, which included a full address and postcode.”
We had a petition in Ramsgate that resulted in our town council, I know the council threw out about a third of the people who signed it because they couldn’t find them on the electoral roll.
As for a local businessman like me being a covert socialist supporter, instead of the floating voter I actually am, I do wonder what sort of tinted glasses you are looking through.
The problem for me is that where I am looking for a credible opposition, with an informed and critical view on local decisions, what I am getting is ill informed and un thought out.
Sorry, Michael, but it is you that are wrong. The responses were by email requiring ones name and address. There was no method of checking whether the person from the given address actually sent the email whether on the electoral roll or not.
DeleteHow is it you will accept a statement from TDC as gospel yet you query a survey carried out by the airport. Both were open to fiddle because they were conducted on line.
I think I see where you are coming from Tom, you appear to be saying that the council’s consultation process is flawed, was flawed under the Conservative administration too, I assume.
DeleteSadly most are unless they are strictly controlled by the Electoral Officers and even then, as we have seen with postal votes, some fiddling goes on. The political hue of the conducting authority is irrelevant.
DeleteFrom memory, the council wanted addresses, postcodes, regardless of where they were for the consultation. They also looked out for duplicates.
ReplyDeleteManstons survey I thought was very good.
I just checked out a flight to faro (11 hours journey time), cape town (25 hours) and Brisbane (35 hours)
ReplyDeleteThat's quite a considerable uplift in journey time, even if you do add a trip to heathrow int the mix. Who is going to use this service? There can't be 140 passengers a day from east Kent wanting or needing all Amsterdam has to offer.
Why just East Kent, 7.47. Manston is an easier journey for most people in Kent than either Heathrow or Gatwick. Keep trying for I am sure you will keep finding reasons to knock this service.
DeleteMost of west and north Kent can reach London and Essex airports far quicker and cheaper than going to Manston and have greater choice than first flying to Amsterdam at the crack of dawn. I think only about 200,000 of Kents 1,600,000 people will think about using Manston and only then if the sums and journey times add up.
DeleteDr Moores says TDC are going to help advertise the service.
ReplyDeleteThat, 7:53, is a matter for the controlling Labour cabinet with a little help from their TIG allies. Dr. Moores is just reporting what he has heard, but he did say the council has agreed to promote this service with the airline which may not necessarily mean they are going to spend our money advertising it. I guess we should keep a watching brief on this just in case.
DeleteOn and on and on...
ReplyDeleteI am a very ardent anti Manston person. I want the place shut, but if I'm going to Amsterdam on business, I'd use the service outbound, but would probably come back to City and get the train back to Thanet.
ReplyDeleteI will go on holiday this year, more than likely driving tomfrance, but if like last year I was flying to Portugal, I would rather take a trip to Gatwick, sit in the ba lounge for an hour, then take 2.5 hours to fly to faro.
The earlier comment about a 10 hour journey time, if true, puts me right off and would frankly take me out of catchment, if there was a direct flight I'd probably use it. I have no problem using something on my doorstep if it's easier, not necessarily cheaper than anywhere else.
I'm not sure if this service is supposed to appeal to me, if I'm the target market? If I am, it's missed.
With just 2 flights a day from Manston you can expect long waits in Amsterdam but what happens if the single plane being used on this route has a failure? You wont be able to look for an alternative out of Manston unles of course you ring Dr Biggles for a private charter.
DeleteWhy are you anti-Manston? Because of the noise and pollution? Yet you're happy to fly from Gatwick and deafen and pollute Crawley? Or just want to make a few more Thanet residents unemployed? Odd ..
ReplyDeleteDo that on April 3rd for £152
ReplyDeleteI'm against manston because it's a waste of space. Could quite easily be turned into something much more useful - housing.
ReplyDeleteI have no problem with a limited use airport down here, but night flights and property blight make me more against it than for. It would be an asset if it was valuable, but it isn't, and it's never going to be.
And if you think planes from gatwick fly over Crawley, I suggest you look at a map.
Anon 4:27
DeleteAm I wrong? It appears that you despise Manston as an entity. I find this curious.
No, the airport has no future. It keeps on offering second rate services. Direct flights good, connecting flights bad. Flights to Edinburgh, Belfast, Manchester. How about Mallorca, faro? Becaue it can't sustain them. I'd use flights to decent destinations - direct destinations- because it's close to home, easy to get to. But that wil never happen as airlines will never arrive.
DeleteAs much as I'd love an airport on my doorstep, it wold cost too much to run and would be a luxury the owner could afford. It would be very selfish of me. I must therefore get up earlier a couple of times a year, fork up for parking and fly from Gatwick.
Anon 9:07PM,
DeleteI fear that what you say is true. I too would like an airport on my doorstep. Not least because every year I fly to Varna. I can only do this from Luton. Which is one of the world's worst airports. I often look wistfully at Manston and think, if only. But I reassure myself with the thought that it might happen, it might. In the meantime I wish Manston and KLM well. For jobs are a good thing albeit they are few.
What about the pollution to the aquifer under the runway?
ReplyDeleteI mentioned it in the post and wonder whether KLM will want to be associated with the airport because of it not being EA compliant on basic environmental safeguards.
DeleteOh no! Don't start him dripping on about the aquifer again, please.
DeleteDifficult 7.36 in this case I think it may be Manston’s Achilles heel, so is on topic in this post.
DeleteThe trouble is that Infratil and the Environment Agency thrashed out at great expense, including a major on High Street public consultation and information campaign, a plan to protect our drinking water aquifer. Now Infratil say they won’t spend the money to comply with the plan, which could be a serious impediment to serious airport involvement by major companies.
My take, engineering hat if you like, is that most of the commercial and industrial activities we engage in have detrimental environmental aspects, at the moment the arbiter is the environment agency and companies that don’t comply with their safety requirements, risk adverse publicity.
Michael, as I am sure you know, being a well informed chap, Thanet's water is piped in from elsewhere, not extracted from some bore hole under Manston airfield. Furthermore, the aquifer, to be correct, is under a large area of the Thames basin on which sit many mixed industrial and residential sites. Whilst it may suit the case of our regular 'Aquifer & Thor' contributor to make Manson the sole cause of water pollution, you should know better.
DeleteTom my interest in this subject extends back for some considerable time, I have followed up the issue of where our water comes from with Southern Water and The Environment Agency. The water that comes out of the taps in Thanet does indeed come from the aquifer under Thanet which is processed to make it potable, diluted with water mostly sourced form Wingham Well. Not only is the Thanet aquifer considered by the EA essential for Thanet’s current and ongoing drinking water supply but it is also considered essential for agriculture in Thanet which relies on public and private boreholes.
DeleteThe main public abstraction comes from boreholes in the Manston area, my guess is that given a big enough problem water could be sourced from outside Thanet, but at a price that would probably be prohibitive for local agriculture.
Taking this assumption combined with many comments like the one you have just made I revisited the issue and decided that the Southern Water and The Environment Agency, perhaps hadn’t been entirely straight with me.
I then got our two MPs Laura and Roger to put a series of questions about Thanet environmental issues to the southeast EA senior officers, Laura sent me a series of written answers, confirming that the Thanet aquifer is essential, is at risk and the airport needs to take measures to protect it.
So Thanet's water is drawn from the essential Manston aquifer.
DeleteAnd water is also piped in to Thanet because the aquifer is polluted.
And the airport and Environment Agency and TDC and KCC have not been protecting the aquifer.
And yet some ex-RAF pensioners ignore that because they're either stupid, or still want an airport like the good old days even though it's bust again?
No wonder Thanet's been destroyed.
Can't wait. Manston is now connected to heathrow by air!
ReplyDeleteHeard today that KLM have just bought 10nr of the best apartments 'off plan' from the Royal Sands development.....Good news for the area
ReplyDeleteI am sure the last comment is utter horse shit.
ReplyDelete6:22, most things around Thanet blog's are utter horse manure or slanted to support one biased view or another, but does it really matter. There are probably no more than a dozen of us contrubuting so we are not going to start a revolution or save the planet anyway. Relax and have a laugh.
Delete