The new plans for the museum have appeared on paper but are
yet to be available as computer files. My initial thoughts on the plans is that
they are pretty good and probably far and away the best we are going to get in
terms of providing an attraction for visitors to Ramsgate there.
Open 10.30am until 5pm Easter Weekend Weekends and Bank Holidays until the start of the School Summer Holidays School Summer Holidays until end of September Tuesday to Sunday
The new Cervia website is at http://www.cervia-volunteer-crew.com/ and also well worth a look at.
I think it look great well done great news thanks
ReplyDeleteDo you really believe it will happen Michael? There seem to be so many plans, strategic outlooks, consultation periods, protest groups and talking shops instead of action here in Thanet. All that happens is the date of their next meeting. During the time that we have waited for positive action on Pleasurama/Ferry terminal/Motor Museum/Dreamland/Arlington House etc, Hastings has actually started work on rebuilding its pier and has planned and built the Jerwood Gallery and maintained the Barn Theatre. It CAN be done if we elect councillors and recruit TDC staff with ability, integrity and the will to make a positive impact. In Thanet? No. I really do not believe it will ever happen. The Isle has so much potential and so much inertia.
ReplyDeleteLooks good to me, very good. I wish it well. Do we have timetable for construction and opening?
ReplyDeleteChuck,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate why you feel that way, who could blame you. I just hope that you are wrong.
I guess that is why I supported the museum giong into the hands of a major local organisation with a good track record Chuck
ReplyDeleteThe plans look awful and seems less about the Maritime Museum than tripling the size of it for more restaurants and cafes, and emptying the Dry Dock.
ReplyDeleteWho commissioned this?
it looks good but the duffers will not let it happen its not in margate??
ReplyDeleteThe Ramsgate Duffers can't even organise Xmas lights each year! Things won't improve with the same Duffers.
ReplyDeleteThey can't even get the public toilets open and keep them clean.
ReplyDeleteAnon 9:14
DeleteIf you don't like the toilets then find somewhere else to sleep.
Anon, troll, trolls, whatever you are at 10.35 11.28 11.54 9.14 I guess I will have to add ludicrously inaccurate comment ito the ones that get deleted. If you had visited Ramsgate or even looked at the photos of them on this blog you will know the Christmas lights in Ramsgate were fine last Christmas, the toilets were open yesterday as I used the ones by the harbour, the Clock House had a large glazed café built on the back from the mid 1800s to around 1920.
ReplyDeleteNow I am all for criticising all three local councils when they don’t do things that they should have done but criticising them for not doing what they have actually done, dear oh dear.
Presumably you live in some town somewhere, so why not write a blog about what is happening there rather than guessing about what may not or may have happened in Ramsgate.
Anyway leave it out or you will go under the bridge with the other trolls, 0%, Walter Mitty and so on.
The point made at 9:14 was that the public toilets are often closed especially in Winter and even boarded up. They are invariably broken or filthy. Perhaps that wasn't clear or perhaps you're over-reacting and determined to lose visitors again.
DeleteAll over the UK anon, and everyone who lives in the UK is aware of the it and the older ones that the days when public toilets had an attendant on site offering a wash and brush up are gone for good. But this has no relevance on a post about the new plans for the museum in Ramsgate.
DeleteYou seem to be deliberately missing the point on open and clean toilets. An attendant from years ago etc is irrelevant and a point of your own. The point made in terms of the Museum though was how TDC can't even provide clean toilets let alone a major building project such as this. I didn't think it needed spelling out for you but obviously it does...
DeleteAnon 9:14 pm,
DeleteIf the toilets are so filthy then find somewhere else to sleep.
The Xmas lights were the same ones as last year...and are still up...Low standards by Michael and TDC it seems...
ReplyDeleteNope different lot up for the summer season now. But this has no relevance on a post about the new plans for the museum in Ramsgate.
DeleteMichael, this activity is not by trolls but the one resident Ramsgate troll whose identity is well known to you. The minute duffers are mentioned one should know who it is along with the mindless criticism of everything. Maybe he cannot help it but have you ever stopped to consider the damage he does to the area by his comments when they are read by those, potential visitors, who do not know his track record.
DeleteMichael,
DeleteYou work hard on your blog. With its pictures, subject choice, humour and frequent learned debates it is always worth a visit. I assume also that this aids your business. I suggest that if you wish to continue in this way then you must curb you know who, perhaps by a formal approach.
I guess a pertinent point would be that the proposals for the maritime museum are being made by the charitable trust that took it over and are nothing whatsoever to do with any of the local councils or the running of public lavatories. But yes I too have had enough of all this nonsense, same or another troll, either way it’s under the bridge.
DeleteBy the way apologies for setting comment moderation while I was away from the computer rather than my usual putting it onto open id, the amount of commercial spammers using Google and the other common ids’ is pretty horrendous at the moment and I thought we could all do without it.
Michael, But do you reject a formal approach by asking someone in writing to make him desist?
DeleteJohn as I have said before the number of trolls, commercial spammers, troll baiters, in fact nearly all of those whose comment is unrelated to the blog post content is entirely related to the page counter in the side of the blog.
DeleteThere is no other forum in Thanet with anything like a thousand page views a day, so if your primary endeavour is telling people the earth is flat, or it is baiting people who have this delusion, then you are likely to comment to that effect here. After all who would read a Thanet Flat Earth Society blog let alone a blog where the main theme was saying that people who think the earth is flat are stupid?
These plans however are important to Ramsgate and as we have little chance of attracting the sort pseudo socialist funding that KCC provide for Turner Contemporary I am looking at all criticism of these plans for any spark of intelligence, any better plans that seem viable, in fact anything apart from comment from those who evidently haven’t read the plans.
This is a concern that the Maritime Trust is raising these plans. I agree with Chris Wells' points below. TDC is incompetent yet it is dangerous diverting public facilities to charitable trusts etc without the necessary democratic oversight that the council - however badly - provides. And it avoids the necessary reforms required at TDC, these plans would still face the planning process?
DeleteAs well I for one am heartily sick of tired of Messrs Holyer and Epps ruining this blog. They have been proved wrong repeatedly on almost every issue especially Manston and now simply insult and seek to run the blog as they see fit. Trolls seems an apt description of them or worse.
Thus spake the man with no name. I shall call you Zog. He who who spits at people from behind net curtains.
DeleteIt is a pity Zog that you are shy of giving us your name bearing in mind that your first paragraph appears to make sense.
Are you ashamed of you name, Zog?
I am heartily sick of people like you, Zog. I cannot liable you for reason that I do not know who you are. But you can liable me because I use my real identity. So watch your tongue.
Hi guys in a toss up between a charitable trust and TDC I’d back TDC all the way
DeleteAgree Councillor X but massive reform of TDC needed - so replacing the old, failed faces means a different type of council...
Deleteoops the spell checker can't spell libel [my6:41 above]
DeleteMichael, I could not read all your copied pages, but what I could read has made me very concerned about the plans presented. The rush to lease the museum, and release Sundowner for her moment at the head of the Dunkirk parade, left us all with a lease which is both loose and dangerous. For example, there is no control over opening hours and days for the existing museum site, control being referenced to an organisation which did not exist even at the time the lease was signed. The museum neither own nor lease some of the land their plans refer to, and they pay no rent as they are meant to be refurbishing the museum in place of rent, but do not have to start their repairs until 2017. Yet they appear to have money to invest in a glossy appraisals document whose planning concepts involve taking over yet more space around the museum
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, the original lease gave them an opportunity to do just that with a refurbished space under the arches, which I believe is not used to raise money but rather to store a boat for one of the owners. You were very defensive about the whole thing and it's value for money when I challenged you 2 years ago. Are you simply being myopic about the performance of the museum
ReplyDeleteI am hearing many concerns, even from Ramsgate Labour Councillors about the performance to date, these glossy proposals, requiring yet more concessions to be achieved are likely to cause real anger, however beautiful they may be. You only commented yourself last year about the reduced opening hours. One begins to wonder if this is all spin, and has any real substance at all.
ReplyDeleteJohn, whilst agreeing with your sentiments, someone who knows the culprit well and who actually cares about him has already tried several times to get him to stop, fearful that one of those he maligns will either sue, or in the extreme case, thump, but all to no avail. Whilst the remnants of knowledge are still there the understanding is not. Only action by blog administrators can curtail his activities.
ReplyDeleteElsewhere, of course, we have someone who should know better standing in front of the Tourist Information Office in Broadstairs over the Easter bearing a banner declaring Thanet as finished. Our councillors may at times not perform that well, but elements of the public don't exactly help either.
Chris taking the council owned foreshore council owned buildings that closed when your administration were in power, of which this is one, The Pavillion, Eagle Café, Albion House, Westcliff Hall, being others, where do you think we would be now with respect to these buildings were your administration still in power? Are you for instance saying that you think The Maritime Museum should be council run and financed?
DeleteNotice you threw in Albion House, Michael, but surely it was a Ramsgate Town Council decision, opposed by some, to move from that property and thus put it up for disposal. Seem to recall even you expressed some concern at the time at the disappearance of certain archives therein. That Albion House is to enjoy a new life as an hotel is surely down to private money and no action by any council of whatever political persuasion.
DeleteWilliam my take was that the town council should have used a shop in the town, have been on the ground floor, as accessible to the electorate as possible and should have seen it as part of there remit to deal with all the problems affecting the local area passing them on to the appropriate authority.
DeleteI don’t think swanning around in tasteful buildings with public access restricted by public volunteers it the way local government should work. That said The Custom House and its overall set up does make the town council more accessible and is less daunting than Albion House was.
You will notice I have been very cautious about what I called the previous TDC administration as I don’t consider its leadership as pertaining to any political party, they did however oversee the trashing of the main publicly owned sites in Ramsgate.
So with the maritime museum my first question to those who don’t think these plans are appropriate, has to be what alternative plan do they suggest? The empty and going towards dereliction of the previous TDC administration is no an alternative as far as I am concerned.
Whilst agreeing with your thrust on some sites, Albion House was not empty having been the home of the Ramsgate Mayor and Charter Trustees for years before the town council moved in. Thus no previous administration 'trashed' it as you put it. One might also point out that the Pavilion was leased to Rank and it was their decision, and right, to close it if they so wanted. Again, no previous administration trashed it, but they perhaps could have been more diligent as landlords in enforcing the full insuring and repairing bit. Over in my neck of the woods, Pierremont Hall has been ignored for years, although producing an income to TDC, and was becoming an eyesore. Suddenly and miraculously, TDC decide to spend some money renovating it only for us now to discover that they are planning to dispose of it. Makes you wonder if anything is done for the good of the town, or its assets, as it seems to be only when expedient for other reasons.
DeleteMichael, your usual rant on publicly owned sites simply will not do. There were proposals for Albion House some years ago similar to those in play today. It was opposed, at least in part by labour members less enlightened than you, as the natural home for Ramsgate Town Council. Westcliff had two serious options, the second of which is the use proposed to this day, started under previous administrations. The Pavilion was actively marketed for 7 years, as is described in current officer reports. The maritime museum in negotiation, without the errors conceded by the current administration referred to above. I realise non of this fits your usual election time pro labour narrative, and you are clearly spending too much time with them as you have caught Iris Johnston's constant tactic of repeating a spin or untruth so frequently you have forgotten the truth. You praised the glossy efforts of the maritime museum; I pointed out some flaws; you don't respond to the flaws, simply change the questions away from the difficulties, and pretend they don't exist. I though it was politicians who were always accused of not answering questions.
DeleteSo Chris, what do you recommend for The Maritime Museum? One option would be the sort of publicly subsidised operations we get in Margate, Turner Contemporary, Dreamland, Winter Gardens, Theatre Royal, if this is the case where does the money come from? Are you suggesting that you had some other alternative charity in place to run the maritime museum and you didn’t tell anyone?
DeleteI wasn’t privy to which of the main iconic council owned sites in Ramsgate were deliberately trashed by the council and which were the subject of an unhappy accident, nor do I understand why the previous administration failed to address the problems despite having a good working majority for eight years.
The key question for us in Ramsgate is what would your administration do about these issues were you to return to power, the why those of us who are floating voters should elect you.
As for your assumptions about my political affiliations, I thought I had told you before that I and the other few remaining businessmen and women in Ramsgate have formed into an anarchist group and will be standing in elections where either the Labour or the Conservative candidate appears not to follow the party values. So for instance if a Conservative candidate appears not to hold Conservative values but seems to be looking for personal gain, we will stand against them or if the labour candidate seems to be standing to accrue allowances rather than holding Labour values we will stand against them or vice versa.
I haven’t yet decided whether I am a Marxist Leninist anarchist or a fascist anarchist I guess it would depend which side I was standing against.
More importantly what are the current Labour lot doing? Who's in your business/anarchist group Michael?
DeleteAs a more occasional, and possibly unbiased, visitor to Thanet's blogs these days, I was amused to see that Michael is back to his floating voter stance, always calling on the Conservatives to outline their policies but never Labour. Michael, how come, if you are so floating, is it that you have managed to convince all the Tories that you are a Labour activist whilst the socialists see you as a friend with a propaganda tool?
DeleteI am sorry, but the regular fallback on some facetious claim to forming a Fascist or Leninist Anarchist party really fools no one. Michael, you are about as impartial as auntie so why not be honest about it. We would all probably respect you more if you were honest and came out in your true colours.
Allan as an unbiased individual would you say that the leadership of the previous administration (senior cabinet members over the majority of the eight years they held office) represented true Conservative values? Would you vote for the same individuals again and be happy for them to be running TDC for the next eight years?
DeleteYou see apart from telling me that I am hopelessly politically biased and what is wrong with the current administration, I can’t seem to extract from any of the current opposition members what they see as their future plans for Ramsgate.
In this instance I have tried to extract some sort of plan from Chris Wells for the future of the maritime museum under Conservative leadership and apart from the inference that he would do all in his power to thwart the charity that are now running it. Which suggests back to the dereliction and closure and barmy suggestions that I am some sort of red under the bed I have got nothing.
I don’t like the situation where the Margate based district council under either administration seems to be primarily focussed on Margate and don’t think the publicly owned leisure venues that are publicly funded, (Theatre Royal, Turner Contemporary, Winter Gardens and now Dreamland) should only be in Margate.
Don’t get me wrong here I am happy and pleased that Margate is getting all this public funding, particularly the socialist largesse from KCC for the Turner Contemporary out of my council tax, but I do feel say for example with the Pavillion in Ramsgate TDC ought to be considering a publicly funded leisure amenity rather than the largest pub in Europe.
Michael, as a now occasional visitors to the Thanet blogs, I made the observation that you come over as having a left wing bias despite your claims of floating voter status. That is how your comments sometimes appear to me, and obviously others, and my opinion of previous administrations leadership teams has no bearing on that whatsoever although I suspect asking that is your way of side stepping the allegation.
DeleteSince you ask, however, let us take a look at Thanet. It has, and has had for years, many real problems. Degeneration of town centres, social deprivation and an inability to attract companies offering quality jobs and salaries. Add an element within its people that want peace and quiet at any cost, and thus oppose everything, and the prognosis is not encouraging. This leave one with two possible conclusions. Either successive administrations, of whatever colour, have failed the place miserably or, alternatively, Thanet's problems are insurmountable.
Allan I think that you have to appreciate that my view is flavoured by being a Ramsgate businessman and as far as I can tell one or few remaining independent shopkeepers actually selling non food goods. From this perspective it does look as though every level of government is looking for ways to finish one off.
DeleteNow at the moment it does appear that Ramsgate is faring better under two years of Labour administration at TDC than we did under the previous eight years of Conservative administration. Now this may make me seem like a Marxist, Leninist, blogger to some people and if that is the case then there isn’t much I can do about it.
Examples of what I mean is we do now have a tourist information office (not one funded out of my council tax like the Margate one) The Eagle Café is now open, the maritime museum is open during the summer, the greatest economic blight on town the Pleasurama debacle is now being addressed.
Now this could all be coincidental and the Conservative group, had they been in power, could well have resolved these issues better, but they didn’t try to when they had the opportunities.
The only comment I have here from a serving Conservative implies that the Conservatives would close the museum, which after all it what this post is about, and if this is an example of Conservative plans for Ramsgate, then in all probability I will vote Labour at the next district council elections. The museum, for example sells the books I publish about the harbour and during last summer sent me customers, as I sent it visitors, so I am directly affected.
Useful points Michael but none of these are to do with TDC: tourism office volunteers after TDC closed the main tourism offices, Eagle Cafe a private venture, Maritime Museum open but huge redevelopment plans and Pleasurama still derelict with Labour trying to develop it. As bad as each other if thats at the risk of going nowhere as the Tories remain silent especially the Pleasurama tax haven issue.
DeleteAnon are you really suggesting The Eagle Café is privatised?
DeleteThe museum never replaces the café that will fund the museum operation, privatised too, but who pays?
With Pleasurama this is subject to UK law, first the independent construction expert produces a work schedule, which must be reasonable, then if the developer fails to comply TDC withdraw the development agreement, at which point the developer has the option to take legal action. After the development agreement is withdrawn which will probably involve a court action this puts TDC in a position to withdraw the leases this could potentially lead to another legal action. The timescale means that it is most likely to be one to two years before TDC get the title to the site back and can decide what to do with it. Yes there is potential for loads of pointless recrimination but we need to be looking towards the future
Sounds like you've swallowed the TDC line on Pleasurama hook, line and sinker...delay and deny as usual...another 2 years of dereliction you think?
DeleteWell anon one of us is completely bonkers, perhaps it’s me.
DeleteI cannot understand why TDC didn't grab the Cardy offer to build Royal Sands. Apparently they offered the full value of the site, with the money paid up front...even before the works started. If the did not perform TDC kept the freehold forever.
DeleteSFP were also taken out in the deal never to return.....
The Cardy deal provided jobs for 200 construction workers for two years
My nephew works for Cardy and they are a real proper company. They have helped transform the buildings of Canterbury
21.08 TDC can’t offer the site to Cardy because it is already leased to SFP and the subject of a development agreement between TDC and SFP.
DeleteOf course Cardy could buy a controlling interest in SFP and build to the current development agreement.
The option that the council relinquish the freehold prior to completion of the development was something that the council took legal advice on when SFP asked for it last year, the legal advice was not to do so.
I don’t think that there would be any future in the council taking specialist legal advice and then acting against that advice, for one thing it would leave everyone in a very difficult situation in terms of future litigation.
I very much doubt that the council would be in a position to offer terms to one developer that they had refused another, as that would open up something of a can of worms.
Yes I guess if Cardy bought the shares in SFP 100% and worked to the current development agreement, that would work. The trouble is the development agreement has expired??
DeleteAnon 9.08 reckons that Cardy are prepared to pay the council in full but to proceed on the basis of just the leases.
My worry is that the council legal advice is flawed on the basis that the lawyers were not briefed properly. You were one of the main lobbyists who originally exposed the council for the 2year debacle of cliff face repairs caused by TDC.....I am sure under the development agreement my concern is that these delays will be seen as an obstacle to the developer
Sounds like you're going in circles Michael for a very simple problem of TDC cancelling the lease and clearing the site. Any court could see the developer has cancelled it themselves. The concern is Ramsgate looking a mess. Surely you would want it cleaned up?
DeleteAh anons, sitting around this particular fire I am wondering exactly who has the chocolate toasting forks 8.17 seems to assume that he or she can change uk property law into something quick and simple, while 10.20 seems to feel that having discovered he was about to build under a dangerous cliff in urgent need of a major structural repair the council should have just let the developer get on without repairing the cliff. While the attitude of the developer has been a ten year work to rule the two significant structures that affect this development are the so far uninvestigated 1860 sea defence and the concrete cliff façade. There may be all sorts of rules that say they can be ignored, however one visit to the site, a look at the state of the cliff façade and the vanishing beach that is supposed to keep the sea defence away from the sea is enough for most people to understand the basic problems the site has.
DeleteThe Cabinet decision in full
Delete1. That the recommendations of the Overview & Scrutiny Panel be received and
adopted.
These were:-:
a. The current development agreement and leases be terminated;
b. There be no re-negotiation of the current development agreement;
c. The previous advice from Eversheds Solicitors be reviewed to determine
why the development agreement did not contain a longstop date entitling
the Council to terminate the agreement if the development was not
completed by that date;
d. As part of the preparatory steps to terminate the development agreement,
a rigorous development programme be established in consultation with a
construction expert to include clear milestones for all phases of the
construction work necessary to complete the development;
e. The construction expert appointed by the Council to advise on the
development programme be retained to support the officers in monitoring
of the development programme;
f. The quality of the existing construction work (including the foundation
structure) be checked to confirm that it remains fit for purpose as a basis
for further planned construction;
2. That the request of the Developer for an extension of time be refused;
3. That the power to implement the recommendations of the Overview & Scrutiny
Panel be delegated to the Cabinet Member for Financial Services and such
power to be enacted by a published decision notice following consultation with
the Chief Executive.
Barry,
DeleteHave there recomendations been actioned?
But in summary it is very clear that TDC want it built, and are taking steps to ensure it does get built
Deletesorry about the late reply been doing risk assessments.
DeleteThe adviser's schedule is currently with officers, from there they serve notice on SFP asking them to repair the breach. Failure to repair would lead to a final notice.
There has been a response from Eversheds and TDC are mulling it over
Although Gloag is not attending...! so waste of a good Saturday afternoon. Who's the Timpson chap?
ReplyDeleteEven with £30M spent on buying out Gloag and £1 billion (but you know its going to be an overspend of another £1 billion) HS1 extension and another £100M to bring Manston up to speed. Its still not in the right place to re-leave Londons airports
ReplyDeleteFlogging a dead horse let it die in peace its the end no more kaput finished
Yes 6:32 only a few more days and Manston will close: no planes at all now. What then?
ReplyDeleteRumour is that an entrepreneur wants to turn Manston into a drag racing track
ReplyDeleteSounds cool
8.00pm
ReplyDeleteAfter the pro-Manston have had their meeting and found out the figures and Gale has fed them a little more BS saying I think it can support 100,000,000,000,000,000,000, jobs and will make £100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 a week in profit with the pro-Manston lot screaming "IT MUST BE SAVED AT ALL COSTS THANET CANT AFFORD TO LOSE THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY OR JOBS" (maybe that seems a little over to top) But I have not yet heard of a pro-manston supporter understanding the money side at all.
After all of that peace and quiet ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Anon 8.00pm,
ReplyDeleteAnd I suppose that mumble is what passes for witty satire in you tribe.
Michael, all I have tried to do is challenge your version of history, and explain where your current rose tinted spectacles about the museum has flaws. To compare the maritime museum with Turner Contemporary or Dreamland is stretching the imagination a little. If the maritime museum had anything like the potential to draw tourists we would be all in favour of pushing it forward. It does not, however, and you know that as well as anyone. I will further enrage your Ramsgate sensibilities by telling you that Cllr Iris Johnston approved a secret ( never announced) £200,000 soft loan to Your Leisure for running the Theatre Royal.
ReplyDeleteChris it is your future plans should you get back into power that really concern me, the Thanet recrimination game is just boring, are you saying here that you would, given the opportunity close the maritime museum and The Theatre Royal letting both significant listed buildings and leisure attractions fall into disuse and decay?
DeleteYou seem to have misunderstood me here, I in no way resent the largesse poured onto Margate by KCC and TDC it is just that I would like some small share for Ramsgate.
Any incoming administration has to start from where they are, not where they would like to be. That would include the poorly negotiated lease for the Maritme Museum, which is already up enforceable in any meaningful sense till 2017. I have explained that many of the other project solutions you cheer actually started under the previous regime; though of course that does not suit your personal narrative. My observations of your politics are just that; observations of what you say and what you duck. Fairly clear from this particular conversation as well. I don't mind what your politics are; tweaking your pretence of neutrality is mildly amusing however!
ReplyDeleteChris I am bit lost on this one, are you saying that the previous regime produced the lease for the Maritime Museum? The Lease for The Eagle Café? Started the action to get us out of the Pleasurama debacle? Had a clearly defined limit on night flights related to economic growth? You know you should have told us about this at the time as I guess we would have voted for you and you would have a working majority.
DeleteYet again, Michael, you attempt to confuse to side step the issue and put words into someone else's mouth. I know what Chris Wells said, but clearly you do not want to.
DeleteAnyway, at least you told us earlier where your vote will go in 2015 as it did in 2011. That is your democratic right and there is no need to be ashamed of it. The justification though that it stems from being a Ramsgate businessman is nonsense. I know many Ramsgate business folk who do not share your political views and some of them are members of the South Thanet Conservative Association.
Your views on selection in education would also be of interest. Both Steve Ladyman, a member of STEP, and Will Scobie, each having had the benefit of a grammar school education, oppose selection, and these are the kind of people you would vote for, yet you take advantage of the selective system for your own offspring. Do you not find that hypocritical?
Ah Allan difficult to remember, I know I voted for Dave Green in both 2007 and 2011, he talks a lot of sense, I definitely voted for the chap who ran the bus company when he stood and I am pretty sure he was conservative, I know in either 2007 or 2011 all three of the candidates I voted for represented different parties, I vaguely remember writing a blog post about it and why I voted for the candidates I did.
DeleteI have two children at grammar school at the moment the next one up did GCSEs at one of the Thanet non grammars then transferred to a Thanet grammar to do As finished chem masters last year and is doing a chem phd at the moment.
I went to school at Lord Mayor Treloar College where I specialised in electronics and then dabbled with lasers, early computers, and other stuff at various places that I wouldn’t embarrass by mentioning so have a fairly broad understanding of what happens in education.
My take being that in Thanet the grammar schools are one of the best things we have, something that gives me considerable reservations about a unitary authority where a Labour majority could damage them, one of our TDC Labour councillors told me that he wanted to move all of the Thanet secondary schools to one great amalgamated school centre at Westwood, he isn’t in my ward so I can’t enjoy not voting for him.
The old 'four schools, one vision' plan of a few years back, much supported by Ladyman, was for Ellington, Hereson, Chatham House and Clarendon House to go together into some enormous greenhouse on Pysons Road which had one size fits all monstrous comprehensive written all over it. Fortunately there were those about, particularly at KCC level, who opposed the plan which would have seen Ramsgate virtually stripped of its schools and the footfall they bring to the town.
DeleteOne should never forget that Thanet has some excellent high schools, as well as its grammar schools, plus two good denominational options. Parents are a bit spoilt for choice here, far better than where I lived in South East London, but you are right when you say a Labour authority could easily destroy it as Harold Wilson did the grammar schools in most of the country years ago.
Well I guess as the current Labour hopeful was educated at Dane Court the issue of selective education producing Labour politicians still goes on. Funny thing with Wilson I once heard him address the Oxford Union, no pseudo working class accent, he spoke with the same accent as the other Oxford dons. I do sometimes wonder whether it is the legacy class system rather than political affiliations that produces some of problems in UK politics. Some of the class jokes like come to mind; like you say upper class, because you are middle class or lower, whereas I say upper middle class because I am an aristocrat or at least upper middle class.
DeleteYes, Will Scobie is a former pupil of Dane Court yet, in party mode, has already declared his opposition to selective education. That is something I have never understood for surely the grammars schools offered the opportunity for children from working class backgrounds to enjoy a quality of education on a par with that available to the wealthy in the private sector. Somehow, Labour attitudes changed from Attlee's post war government, that made more grammar school places available, to the 60's thinking that somehow perceived the grammars as the choice of the middle classes.
DeleteLooking round the UK today, and particularly with the seeming adoration of celebrity status, something that can range from a brain dead sports person to a winner of Big Brother, is there really a class system left? Is Victoria Beckham really posh, or just rich? Perhaps it is more that some people are educated and others are not. Certainly at minister level, is there much to choose between the backgrounds of those of differing political parties? Cameron, Glegg and Milliband all had fairly privileged upbringings.
Epps is stupid but his persistent calibrating of every topic to Tory politics (except where corruption is concerned) is drabber than your insistence Michael that improving Pleasurama will take another two years or so. To miss yet another Bank Holiday means RTC are finished: their sudden unveiling of new town plans are merely scrabbling around to do something/anything after years of incompetence. And most of the plans are essentially talks about talks ie developing plans to then seek funding. We need a change.
DeleteWell anon prior to 820 AD we had Kings of Kent mostly selected by combat and much of our legal system was based around trial by combat, which is the only solution I have ever heard of that speeded up the legal system. Fast, effective, a bit messy and ultimately fatal, is this the kind of change you have in mind? Should we be practicing our marshal arts so we can fight anyone who claims the land or buildings we own or lease, or are we best of with the slow old legal system.
DeleteWilliam, I would agree with you that grammar schools would offer a potential uplift to working class children - providing those children have the opportunity to get into the grammar schools. As it is, there are a large number of children from the poorest parts of Thanet who never get the opportunity to attend either of the Thanet grammar schools - and some junior schools, I understand, where the Kent Test is not even sat. The vast majority of children at Chatham House, where my daughter attends, are upper middle-class children from the wealthier parts of Ramsgate and Broadstairs - with some travelling in from as far away as Whitstable. Very few come from Margate, Cliftonville or Newington.
DeleteAs it stands, the grammar schools of Kent represent a system by which the middle classes can obtain a cut-price 'private-school' style education. And yes, I went to a grammar school and my daughter currently attends one.
Just in case I wasn't clear - I think the total Grammar School system (in other parts there is a mixed Grammar-comprehensive system) in Kent is very good for the children that attend (around 20% but less in Thanet where we have more Grammar places than children 'qualified' to fill them) but pretty dreadful for the majority of those who do not.
DeleteInterestingly, and in my view very tellingly, the Dover Grammar schools have a wider intake than the rest of Kent, but get better results.
Joe I would think that if a child of average academic ability or even some way below average studying in any of the Kent non grammars wanted to get into a grammar school it wouldn’t difficult for them. it is mostly a matter of hard work, you can take the selective entrance exam every year of your secondary school life and I would surprised if there were any of the Thanet non grammars where it would be very difficult to get up to the required standard.
DeleteI'm sorry, I disagree Michael. The odds are overwhelmingly stacked against poor children passing the Kent test, which explains why so few of the poorest children attend Kent's Grammar schools. Many wealthy parents pay for extra tuition to help their children pass the test.
DeleteI will agree with you that there are systems for children to move into Grammar schools, but these are very rarely used - which may reflect the lack of aspirations for the poorest children and their families.
Joe, I take your point. But in my experience I find it hard to accept that lack of aspiration can simply be laid at the door of poverty. I have lived and worked in Africa and India. There you find people who are truly poor. About all they possess is aspiration. They will move heaven and earth to get their children a good education.
DeleteThis education is nearly always in English and they grow to love our language more than some of us do. Just watch the Jeremy Kyle show or listen in the High St.
Joe, I was for many years a governor of one of our local grammar schools and know that we had many children entitled to free school dinners, hence from families on well below average incomes. Apart from, as Michael has pointed out, the opportunity to get into a grammar school throughout secondary education, many Thanet children do switch to the grammar schools in the sixth form to do their A levels of IB Diploma. This entry is on their GCSE results so, again, hard work reaps its rewards.
DeleteMy father, a teacher, once was a staunch advocate of the comprehensive system, so much so that when Kent did not change he moved home and family to South East London to take up a post in a new large comprehensive there. After years of disillusionment he finally told me that you could not even teach the children who wanted to learn in that environment. Funnily enough, the comprehensive system seems to work better in middle class areas than in the social deprived. That is not always down to being poor, but often unsatisfactory home/family support situations.
One might add though, that if any Thanet parent really wants comprehensive education for their child, we have an excellent one in Ursuline College.
John - I have worked around the world and I agree that poverty is not necessarily related to lack of educational aspiration. But it seems to be in England, particularly amongst the white working classes.
DeleteWilliam, the numbers of poorest children in the Kent Grammar schools is well documented. It is not true that 'many' children move from non-selective schools in Thanet to the Grammar schools. Rubbish. Some do, not at all many.
Sixth form is a completely different thing because it is not compulsary education. I strongly believe that some children who would perform well in Grammar school languish in the non-selective schools and do not gain enough GCSEs to attend a Grammar school at A-level.
I'd suggest that many have a rather sneering attitude to the poor - and imply that they could all perform if they would just work harder, which totally downplays the barriers that they face.
And your point about Ursuline is not really very helpful, given it is massively over-subscribed. A child from a poor non-Catholic family in Newington is highly unlikely to get into Ursuline. The fact remains that the vast majority of the poorest children are left with the poorest schools and the most limited options. The overall attainment of children in Kent is one of the worst in the country, even whilst acknowledging that the brightest do very well.
Joe, I am not seeking to have an argument with you and can only state from my own experience. I used the term 'many' when talking about sixth forms and have found the Thanet sixth form system excellent, offering both academic and vocational; course opportunities at higher education level. I think, if you look at the size of the grammar school sixth forms, you must realise that there is no way all those youngster came through the years 7-11 in that school.
DeleteIn any education system we must surely want to achieve the best results from the talents available. As you say the brightest children in Kent do very well. Perhaps, therefore, we should be looking at the selection system to eliminate 'coaching' and offering a wider range of selection options to the less academically orientated but still talented youngsters in spheres of vocational skills, sport, art and music. What is far harder to cater for is the lack of a stable home life or of parental support. Those were the problems my father encountered in an inner London borough rather more than poverty.
DeleteMr, Turner, it is not unknown for people to start going to church regularly in order to get their children into their first choice of primary school, so why not secondary? Or is it maybe that some parents just are not that bothered? You can only go so far to level the playing field without taking everyone down to the lowest common denominator. Something Labour always find out but never take on board.
No just cant understand why some people kill their surrounds when the numbers are staring them in the face. What dont you lot understand. You are wasting tax
ReplyDeleteI think it was Mick Fealty, Slugger O'Toole blog, who published some years ago that Grammar schools in Northern Ireland cost less per pupil than non Grammar schools.
ReplyDeleteThe debate about selection helps create a victim culture. The people who define themselves by perceived disadvantages and by whom they blame rather than by who they are. Yet the brightest lads in the Scouts with me made sure they failed 11 plus. They went on to be the most successful too. One becoming an unqualified manager at a large chemicals factory. The sort of chap your son would have ended up working for Michael !
The debate is based on an assumption that opportunity arises only from education in early life. In a society that prides itself rightly on access to lifelong learning such an argument must be aberrant.
In the Army (many years ago) it was noticed that ex Grammar School soldiers tended not to retain and apply the lessons from basic training. The reason posed was that Grammar School had caused a clinical brain cynicism affecting long term memory. In other words to survive the Belsen of the Brain wide curriculum cramming into reluctant brains Grammar School experience their brains had adapted. Store knowledge until exam passed then scrap it but do not burden the long term memory by storing it.
Hence Grammar school soldiers were passing out from basic training in about top 8% (Physical and skills testing) but later in a unit had forgotten even basic weapons handling skills.
Where I was raised there was one Grammar School to about 10 secondary moderns in the area. Yet the interschool sports used to see Grammar School win everything.
The military boarding school in the county would take on the rest of county combined schools at amateur boxing. And whitewash them. With most of the military school boxers being from the "Grammar School" levels of the five streams in the military school.
The Grammar schools did not do boxing but I imagine if they had then they would have given the military school at least a contest.
But the military school did not emphasise how many O levels target target target. It educated its pupils. There is a difference.
Funny, 9:27, but I and most of my friends from my grammar school finished up as commissioned officers on National Service. I guess that was because we were thick enough. On military schools, even today, the Duke of Yorks Military School in Dover is judged on its GCSE attainments just like any other school. There is no difference, but maybe you are confusing with special to arm training with adult recruits.
DeleteOh dear I have just got to some of the recent comment, I guess I need to introduce a CTF award with 11.04 interpreting the TDC cabinet licence to kill Pleasurama as a licence to build and 9.27 brandishing the chocolate toasting fork, man and boy, since he failed his eleven plus. So looking at the comment here which one takes the prize?
ReplyDeleteAnon 9:27,
DeleteWhere did you copy this from. I would like to go back and check the original source. It all sounds a bit peculiar.
9.27 passed his 11 plus. By "Peculiar" JH you mean at odds with the basis for your self esteem. A profound psychological challenge to you that caused you to imply the information was copied from one source and, like Michael, to draw a conclusion without checking your facts. As it is more likely that the material has multiple sources then the likelihood it is "All a bit peculiar" reduces into unlikelihood ? I diagnose that you suffer from a Grammar School education ?
ReplyDeleteMichael, unable to mount an argument, turned for the comfort of support from the mob. Played the man and not the ball. Rather silly.
Anon 8:44,
DeleteI have read your comment. It is a pity that you did not do so before you posted it. Struggle as I may your point alludes me. Having said that, I remind myself that you are only an anon, and that I need not bother you further.
Did you read yours? If you had, you might have spotted "alludes". You meant "eludes", but who am I, as a humble anon, to point out your error!
DeleteAnon.10:30 am,
DeleteYou are correct . I meant 'eludes'. It was an autocorrect spell check that I failed to spot. I do not expect you to believe this explanation. You are not that humble.
10.22. 9.27 did not say that military schools evade being judged on their exam results. 9.27 said that a broad curriculum and exam results were not emphasised. Because education is far more than cramming subjects, suffering brain chemistry damage and passing exams.
ReplyDeleteI think it was 1970s that a book about Chief constables was published. As far as I recall it found back then they were largely Grammar School 'o' level leavers with moderate o level results. They nearly all listed a "First to" in their police CVs. First to pioneer a pro-active approach. First to pioneer study of architectural influence on crime patterns. They were all in effect sitting exams, in new subjects of their own invention to avoid peer review, and hoping for a pass to be signalled by promotion.
9.27 maybe he was a psyops officer ? Too simple for a type like that to simply ask "Grammar School people please identify yourselves and whilst at it reveal your inner psyche". But Grammar School personalities are easier than Secondary Moderns. The Grammar School victim actually believes he is cleverer. And is unable to see that cleverness was "Educated" out of him. JH classic example. The other fellow cites achievements in life with no sense of irony. What a laugh. Thank you.
ReplyDelete