1 Granville Marina Ramsgate 2nd floor goes in and a day off ramble

After taking the children to school today I noticed considerable activity on Marina Esplanade, this was due to another floor going into the Marina Restaurant project.

There are a few pros and cons to this project, on the positive side there has been a flood risk assessment and this has caused the ground floor level to be raised up by about a metre than the Pleasurama development ground floor level.

This should make the building reasonably protected from a combination of high tides and storms, the negative side to this is that there is no emergency escape for the people inside to the cliff road above, so if there is a big storm they remain inside the building until the storm is over.

Also on the positive side the quality of the building work seems to be of a high standard, I have been keeping an eye on this one and haven’t seen any nasties going on there, no covered up shoddy workmanship, building waste dumped in building voids and so on.

My main concern relates to the part of the building that wasn’t there before and the cliff behind it, this is a large concrete covered lump of chalk, as far as I can tell, the top of which is in a bad state.

Here are the pictures http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/netbook211/id9.htm published using my small netbook so I didn’t get a chance to look at them before publication.

Another reservation I have is the heavy lorries using the Marina Road viaduct, I am not sure it is really up to taking the weight, the signs at the top saying NO CONSTRUCTION TRAFFIC are all very well, but there really isn’t another way of accessing the site, because of the way the Pleasurama site hoardings make the promenade too narrow.

I will add to this post as the day continues and if I get a WiFi connection also add some more pictures, uploading a hundred or so pictures via a mobile phone connection isn’t really viable.

You can also see the work on the Pleasurama site from above, the concrete pads could conceivably be for a tower crane, I have asked the contractor to tell us what they are up to and am hopeful that I will get a reply.

Herne Bay today, interesting if you live in Ramsgate or Margate as like Deal it's a very close about 14 miles town centre to town centre.

Taking photographs as I do the first thing one notices is the absence of dog's mess on the promenade, this can be a major problem when looking at the world through a viewfinder.

Here’s the first batch of Deal pictures, published in the café while eating my lunch http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/netbook211/id10.htm

Another thing I noticed was the parking, the first 2 hours on the seafront was free and when I moved the to a car park nearer to a shop I had bought a lot of heavy books from, the parking charge was £1.10 for all day.

Not as many pictures after lunch as I would have liked, due to the amount of books I had bought, combined with the problem of getting back to collect the children from school.

Café brunch, very fast service and good value at £4.99, right in the middle of the town centre, green blinds, I think it was called Greenfields, good WiFi connection too, I was in a hurry and published the previous lot of pictures while eating.


Anyway here are the rest of the pictures http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/netbook211/id11.htm

I don’t know exactly where the problem lies here in Thanet, the truth is that both Ramsgate and Margate both had town centres at least as good as Herne Bay’s or Deal’s, when I first opened the bookshop in Ramsgate 23 years ago, and not all of the shops that have closed in Ramsgate Margate have any competition in Westwood Cross.

Something I notice particularly is the independent antique and junk shops that have mostly closed in Ramsgate still seem to be thriving in Herne Bay have mostly gone in Thanet.

How high is high tide at Ramsgate?

With the various developments proposed and ongoing on the foreshore in Ramsgate, most particularly the proposed one on the harbour slipways, I have been looking at the various tidal flood risk assessments.

I spent some time today discussing the flood risk assessment for the slipways development with the chap who wrote it and as far as I can see there have been various errors made and problems relating to access of full and accurate information both about the development and the local tide statistics, by the person writing the flood risk assessment.

One thing that is petty simple here is that the development is to be built on three levels, undercroft, ground and first floor. Unfortunately it seems that the planning sheet showing the undercroft wasn’t passed on to the firm preparing the flood risk assessment.

Engineering hat now, so I would suggest just taking my word that people in the bar the ground floor may get wet feet, unless you have some patience.

OK for those who are following into the higher country of the mind here, I want you to think about just exactly how high, high is. Start with something big that is easy to think about, Mount Everest is at 29,002 feet or 8,840 metres high, you can check this if you want, but the question you may not have asked is higher than what?

OK if you said sea level, you are doing pretty well here, but the sea goes up and down so what sea level?

If you live in Ramsgate then you have probably have seen the levels marked next to the lock gate, between the inner and outer harbour so you may think that it is level that I am talking about.

It indicates that the harbour wall is about 6 metres above sea level. So you would assume that the top of Mount Everest is 8,834 metres above the harbour wall in Ramsgate.

I am afraid to say that you may be wrong the levels written on the harbour are in chart datum, but when in 1856, the Great Trigonometric Survey of British India established the height of Everest the surveyors used ordnance datum.

Ordinance datum is 2.58 metres (about eight foot six inches) higher than chart datum.

Architects use ordnance datum on their planning sheets and information about tides and sea levels is measured in chart datum, make a mistake about this and you may be in deep water.

This wasn’t the mistake that happened with any of the plans for developments on Ramsgate’s foreshore, but I think the confusion around it helped to cover some up.

Now to save confusion here I am going to take off my engineers hat and put on my sailors hat, so it’s time to say, “hello sailor.” If you didn’t think I could do this see http://thanetonline.blogspot.com/2007/12/friggin-in-rigging.html or http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/cryfromthesea/index.htm

All of the figures below are in chart datum.

The lowest indoor bit of the proposed development on the slipways is 6.18 metres above chart datum.

I think some of the confusion has come from, the figure 5.4m is the MHWS for Ramsgate, the flood risk assessment takes this to be about the highest astronomical tide, this actually stands for mean high water spring, i.e. the average height of a spring tide and not the highest astronomical height.

HAT - Highest astronomical tide is the one they should have used the HAT at Dover is 7.3m the difference for Ramsgate is 1.6 giving a HAT for Ramsgate of 5.7

The highest recent tidal surge locally was 14th Feb. 1989 at 10:00 hours this was 1.84 metres above normal high tide registered on the Dover tide gauge, as tidal surges are caused by low barometric pressure the level would be about the same for Ramsgate.

I would think it reasonable to assume that adding the HAT at Ramsgate to the surge would give the best idea of the highest possible spring and surge level here i.e. 7.54 metres.

We would be very unlucky to have a tide this high now, the tidal surge of 1953 was 8.22 m at Dover which works out at 6.62 for Ramsgate, this surge was combined with a severe storm, though fortunately not a spring tide.

In the 1953 tida1 surge 1,835 people were killed in the Netherlands and 307 were killed in the United Kingdom and about 250 people were killed at sea, many of them sailors.

A problem with the sea is that it has waves, I suppose the fact that it killed over 2.500 people in this part of the world during one storm, is a testament to this.

This means that anyone contemplating building on our foreshore needs to consider how high the waves here can get.

Several factors determine how high the waves will get in a storm, once again there are different ways of expressing the height of a wave, as I have my sailors hat on I will use the one called significant height, this is the height difference between the trough between the waves and the crest on the waves.

One factor is the strength (speed) of the wind, as a sailor I will express this in knots, nautical miles per hour, a nautical mile is a little bit longer than a statute mile.

In the days of sail sailors measured the speed of their ship with a line with equally spaced knots tied in it and a lump of wood on the end. One of them dropped the bit of wood over the side and counted how many knots passed through his hands, while another one timed this with a glass, something like a big egg timer with sand running through it.

Another factor is the duration of the storm, the longer the wind blows for the higher the waves, this has a saturation time after which the waves don’t get any bigger.

Another factor is the fetch of the sea, this is how far it is between the shores along the line of the wind direction.

There are other factors but I think we will stick to those, otherwise it is going to get scientific and didn’t wear a hat when I worked as a scientist.

As Michael Fish said there won’t be a hurricane so we certainly don’t need to worry about 11 metre waves on a worse case scenario 7.45 metre tide.

You will be glad to know that the depth of water mitigates the height of the waves.

The worst we have had in recent years was in 1953, because of the wind direction we were sheltered in Ramsgate, the waves were also mitigated here because the fetch was across the Straights so Dover and not along the Channel.

I would say about 7 metre waves on a 6.62 metre tide.

The environment agency say that new developments should be assumed to have a life of 100 years, the best predictions for the rise in sea level by 2110 are between 1 and 2 metres, they are working on just over a metre.

They are saying that by then we should be expecting static tides of about 8 metres above sea level here in Ramsgate and building now to accommodate for them.

Obviously there have to be compromises here a balance between the worst case scenario, which is a 2 metre sea level rise and 7.45 metre tide with 11 metre waves and what is likely to happen in reality.

Normally anyone producing a flood risk assessment will have considered the sea defences in front of the development and how far behind them the waves will be broken up enough to stop them damaging the building.

This isn’t an option with the slipways development as it is to be built on a small pier, so the waves will be under it as well as in front of it.

With the Pleasurama development there hasn’t even been a flood risk assessment, so no one has even bothered to consider the problem.

Council sell off six of the few remaining parking spaces for Ramsgate Main Sands

As you can see they are already being boarded off, presumably this is part of the council’s policy to promote tourism in Ramsgate this summer.

What with this and the whole Pleasurama site looking to be deserted and unused for the main summer season, it wouldn’t appear there is much more they could do to give Ramsgate a boost this year.

Click on the pictures and then click on them again to fully enlarge them.

1 Granville Marina restoration work starts again.

This is one of those only in Thanet sagas all the information below for those of you unfamiliar with it, the picture above is of the new development that they have just started on, I think, click on it to enlarge.

First the link to the Planning Inspectorates decision allowing the development that the council turned down:http://www.pcs.planningportal.gov.uk/pcsportal/fscdav/READONLY?OBJ=COO.2036.300.12.1781107&NAME=/Decision.pdf

This link takes you to the planning inspectors decision to award costs against the council.http://www.pcs.planningportal.gov.uk/pcsportal/fscdav/READONLY?OBJ=COO.2036.300.12.1781128&NAME=/Costs.pdfIt only goes to show what you can get away with when it comes to listed buildings.

The links below take you some of my previous posts about the matter.

http://thanetonline.blogspot.com/2008/02/goody-goes-bananas.html

http://thanetonline.blogspot.com/2008/02/goody-outlawed-httpwwwmichaelsbookshopc.html

http://thanetonline.blogspot.com/2008/12/congratulations-to-tdc-planning.html

http://thanetonline.blogspot.com/2009/06/restoration-ramsgate-style.html

http://thanetonline.blogspot.com/2008/10/1granville-marina-when-is-planning.html

http://thanetonline.blogspot.com/2008/10/plans-for-marina-restaurant.html

More pictures of the restoration work.

http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/cafe/index.htm

http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/cafe/id2.htm

these pictures taken today http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/610/id16.htm

Granville Marina Restaurant Ramsgate planning appeal

This is a bit of a complicated one with various links to follow but very important to the development of the Eastern Undercliff in Ramsgate, thanks to Gerald for alerting me to the situation.

First the link to the Planning Inspectorates decision allowing the development that the council turned down:

http://www.pcs.planningportal.gov.uk/pcsportal/fscdav/READONLY?OBJ=COO.2036.300.12.1781107&NAME=/Decision.pdf

This link takes you to the planning inspectors decision to award costs against the council.

http://www.pcs.planningportal.gov.uk/pcsportal/fscdav/READONLY?OBJ=COO.2036.300.12.1781128&NAME=/Costs.pdf

It only goes to show what you can get away with when it comes to listed buildings.

The links below take you some of my previous posts about the matter.

http://thanetonline.blogspot.com/2008/02/goody-goes-bananas.html

http://thanetonline.blogspot.com/2008/02/goody-outlawed-httpwwwmichaelsbookshopc.html

http://thanetonline.blogspot.com/2008/12/congratulations-to-tdc-planning.html

http://thanetonline.blogspot.com/2009/06/restoration-ramsgate-style.html

http://thanetonline.blogspot.com/2008/10/1granville-marina-when-is-planning.html

http://thanetonline.blogspot.com/2008/10/plans-for-marina-restaurant.html

More pictures of the demolition.

http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/cafe/index.htm
http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/cafe/id2.htm

Thanet District Council cabinet meet and delays for Ramsgate

As you can see my last post was pretty much a party political broadcast from the local Labour party, but at the moment it is the only account of the meeting on the internet so will have to suffice.

The two big Ramsgate issues remain unresolved, Pleasurama is to go to full council, with cabinet support for going ahead with it, I suppose no one wants to admit that the whole thing has been a disaster from the beginning.

The cabinet recommending going ahead with development that contravenes Environment Agency safety recommendations with no performance bond sounds about right.

The Maritime Museum remains unresolved which suggests more delays, some sort of decisive action wouldn’t go amiss so that Ramsgate can get on with being a leisure town.

My understanding is that Preston Steam Museum were to open during the first week of July, but had made it abundantly clear that they would only go ahead if the agreement had been finalised, this was supposed to have happened at last nights cabinet meeting.

There seems to have been some sort of error and no one had realised that “the asset disposal working party overview and scrutiny panel” have the power to veto the whole thing, so there is very little likelihood of the museum opening until well into august, which of course they are unlikely to do as it will be at the end of the season.

It doesn’t look like there will be much chance of the Maritime Museum opening or the Pleasurama site being cleared up, this is not so funny for people like me who are trying to trade in the town.

Back to why I published the Labour account of the meeting, before I go on I would be happy to publish an account from any of the Conservative group to balance things up if anyone wants to send me one and of course when they appear I will put the draught minutes up on http://thanetpress.blogspot.com/

For me what this is about is TDCIT here and now in the 21st century it should be possible for the officer that wrote the minutes to publish them straight to the web on a page with proper feeds so we would all know what is going on. It should also be possible for the video that they are already making to be uploaded to Youtube or Kent TV.

I find it quite curious that TDC uses Youtube rather than Kent TV which is paid for out of our council tax, perhaps they no something we don’t.

It’s decision day for another thing on the eastern undercliff today the ongoing Marina Restaurant restoration project today one way or another the council have made a bit of a mess of the eastern undercliff.

Anyone involved in the planning decision may wish to click here and ponder the rules that have already been broken over this one.

At one time or another they have owned and had full control of all of this area and have managed to trash it. The Marina Swimming pool, various different stories of the mismanagement that caused it to close. The removal of the car parking facing the sea and the cliff to fit in with a developers plan that never happened. The demolition of Nero’s which was a Victorian theatre and one of the earliest cinemas all part of the charming Granville Marina. The Pleasurama saga that so far has removed the main leisure car park to make way for a road layout built without the flood risk assessment strongly recommended by the EA. The Granville Marina Restaurant saga again today.

Restoration Ramsgate Style

1 Granville Marina was a stunning example of how the council can do things by the book and produce the most ridiculous result, it shows just what a developer can get away with while the council’s building control officers look on.

Yep I am afraid that there they are paid for by us to protect our heritage and yet seemingly unable to do so, which begs the question why should we pay for something that doesn’t work?

Anyway don’t take my word for it click on the link and look at the pictures http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/cafe/index.htm Bertie has posted about this one see http://thanetstrife.blogspot.com/2009/06/planning-by-bulldozer-makes-change.html so has Dave see http://eastclifframsgate.blogspot.com/2009/06/granville-marina-restaurant.html seems they couldn’t just say stop the demolition while we review the situation more pictures here http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/cafe/id2.htm you can see the building control officers in the pictures, seemingly they have no control.

Anyway back in February 2008 when this happened I wrote to TDC asking what had gone wrong click on the link for the correspondence http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/cafe/id4.htm so why bring this up now?
Next Wednesday there is a planning committee meeting and one of the items is for a much larger development there with residential accommodation on the ground floor with recommendation to approve these plans see http://tdc-mg-dmz.thanet.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?MId=1610

Well all along the line it has been the developers clear intention to demolish this listed building to make way for a much larger building, also to put residential accommodation on the ground floor in what the environment agency say is a Flood Zone 3a (High Probability) something you are not allowed to do.

The following is a quote from the environment agency writing about the Pleasurama development which is slightly further along the same sea defence and at about the same level.

“Areas immediately behind defences lie in the High Risk Rapid Inundation Zone (RIZ) and are particularly vulnerable due to the risk of the defences being over-topped or breached, resulting in fast-flowing and potentially deep water with little or no warning.”

I should point out that at a previous meeting the recommendation was to turn them down, it certainly makes one wonder what has happened to make them change their minds.

Reading the flood risk assessment attached to the planning application refs F/TH/09/0052 and F/TH/09/0051 the link takes you the TDC planning website http://www.ukplanning.com/thanet it says that there is no evidence of the site flooding in the past, this is a bit odd as it floods pretty much every winter.