I have to admit here to not understanding why
SMA are handing in this petition as it simply doesn’t have anything like enough
signatures for parliament to consider. The minimum number of verified
signatures from UK citizens needs to be 100,000 for parliament to even consider
debating the issue the petition is about. Why anyone would even consider
handing in a petition of only 26,500 make one wonder about motives and advice.
The whole business of SMA and petitioning has got so
confusing that I wonder if even the SMA committee know what is going on, I will
endeavour to find the various Manston petitions and put some information about
them here. Any help with this would be appreciated.
Petitions to Thanet District Council.
1 E-petition Started by: Oscar Maynard (Save Manston Airport
Group)
Prayer: “We the undersigned petition the council to make a
compulsory purchase of Manston, Kent's International Airport. We would also
like Thanet District Council to look into the possibility of members of the
public to buy bonds into this purchase.”
This ePetition ran from 16/05/2014 to 26/06/2014 and has now
finished.
3361 people signed this ePetition.
Notes on this petition: as far as I can see this petition
wasn’t verified in any way and doesn’t conform to the usual rules of only
allowing respondents from a designated electoral area. It certainly doesn’t
conform to the usual rules on starting a petition to a level of uk government
as Oscar Maynard is a Guniversity undergraduate studying for his degree in
the Netherlands, so he is not a UK resident at the moment.
Petitions to Kent County Council.
I can’t find any KCC petition on their website, see https://democracy.kent.gov.uk/mgEPetitionListDisplay.aspx
this is strange as I would have thought KCC would have been the nearest to
representing the airports catchment area.
1 E-petition Petitioning Sir Roger Gale
Place a Compulsory Purchase Order on Manston Airport, Kent
Prayer
“We the undersigned do not want Ms Gloag and her cohorts to
attempt to develop any part of Manston Airport. Ms Gloag has already shown
her hand in talks over development of the the northern green area of the
airport which she would like to build 1000 homes on and now the aiport is
closed undoubtedly further pockets will suddenly be identified by her for
housing development.
This must never happen, Thanet is a deprived area with unemployment levels nearly twice the South East Of England average. Housing developments will not bring proper full-time jobs but genuine managment & development of the airport can provide numerous jobs both on & off site.
This must never happen, Thanet is a deprived area with unemployment levels nearly twice the South East Of England average. Housing developments will not bring proper full-time jobs but genuine managment & development of the airport can provide numerous jobs both on & off site.
Manston
Airport will never be an overnight success but proved its ability to attract
freight, training and some passenger services. It is an airport ready to use
and develop not a folly yet to be built.
To ensure that development of
the site remains as an airport we call on Thanet District Council to place a
compulsory purchase order on Manston Airport, Kent. To reopen the airport for
freight & service traffic and, after an initial period, to lease the site
to a suitable”
Petition by
Richard Barber
Herne Bay, United Kingdom
Notes:
Generalist Adviser at Citizens Advice Bureau, Herne Bay
February 2014 to present
Studies W200 etc at The College of Law
Past: The Open University and The College of Law
2 Vote to keep Manston Airport open
Official verified UK parliament E-petition
Responsible
department: Department for Transport
Prayer:
“This petition is put together by locals who do not wish to see Manston Airport
close down. Please take a minute to sign the petition and keep our local
airport opened.”
Number of signatures:
2,136
Created by:
Gareth Cairns
Closing:
21/03/2015 08:59 
I think you will find that Oscar Maynard describes himself as a GEEK, not a GREEK. He is a student living with his boyfriend in the Netherlands but comes from Deal. http://oscarmaynard.com/ refers. I submit this in the interests of accuracy and with no other comment.
ReplyDeleteSorry it was the Orca wot done it, a senior moment which I have corrected. The sea monster from Aristo wasn’t it.
DeleteAn Orca is a killer whale, otherwise it is all Greek to me.
DeleteMore petitions here. Much more important than Manston. http://www.afpg.info/ http://www.efva.co.uk/
ReplyDeletethe ranting that goes on when people discuss Manston is very reminisce of the "Emperor's New Clothes" woe betide anyone who has any other point of view!!
ReplyDeleteI have read in the Thanet Gazette that, at a recent public meeting, Iris Johnston stated that the CPO would not be funded by the Thanet tax-payer, as the tab would be picked up by RiverOakLLC. This is an abuse of CPO powers, that was never intended to take a private enterprise out of the hands of a private business owner, and to put it into the control of another company, let alone a US company! She also back-tracked on night flights, stating that there would need to be a referendum on them, whereas there was already one properly held in 2012. This is unacceptable.
ReplyDeleteSo john can you post any links on "This is an abuse of CPO powers, that was never intended to take a private enterprise out of the hands of a private business owner, and to put it into the control of another company" as there on here that believe the answer resides on the internet and is easy to find.
ReplyDeletethe remit of a CPO is set out in it's regulations. It is obvious that the purpose of a CPO is not to remove a business from one owner and to give it to another!
DeleteBarry & John,
DeleteAll very interesting, but the law on CPO disagrees with you. It's all on the internet. Search for it online and you may discover that your time is better spent in the search rather than tapping away on this blog.
I wasn't offering advice Peter and John's kind offer of posting the links to the Law on CPO's seems to have been deleted so any chance of posting them again.
DeleteSeveral Councillors of different colours don't seem to have found what John says he has discovered somewhat unusual I would have thought.
Hi Barry is this what your looking for?
Deletehttp://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/5
Not really Om had read all that but nothing on acting as a middleman between 2 private companies
DeleteSorry Barry I have looked all day and cant find the simple version but I'm very impressed that you looked though that and determined that it did not cover a council being a middleman. I did read that, not only could a council act on behalf of a private company against another. Also a private company can CPO another without the council help but I cant find it anywhere now.
DeleteSo TDC say it could be at least 7 months before they can contemplate issuing CPO and not doubt it wil take a few years to go through the courts if procedures are started. In the mean time any signs that there was an airport at Manston would have long gone and no doubt TDC in the absence of a Local Framework Plan would have no choice but to have granted planning permission for any scheme that the airport owners put forward. I cant think of any other instance where a CPO has been put forward to build an airport, and one that may not be for local passengers and such a CPO was deemed to be " a compelling case in the public interest".
ReplyDeleteLooks like there will ony be 2 winners if this CPO goes ahead, one the lawyers and two the airports owners.
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DeleteI agree, looks like Iris Johnston has got herself tied up in a very vulnerable situation. She must be a complete fool
DeleteSo are you saying the Law has to change as currently CPO rules make what is currently proposed is illegal, Peter
Deletejust looking at your comment "Kick up enough of a fuss and rules / laws change." and took it you thought enough protest and the government may change the Law to make a CPO possible. No more no less.
Deleteyou do seem to to have a bee in your bonnet abt people who ask realistic questions being against Manston reopening without any idea whether they are for or against.
Thanet District Council has not asked the council tax-payers of Thanet whether they want a CPO or not, as the e-petition as open for anyone regardless of location. Is there any way we can stop furtherance of this CPO, which has already cost us money?
ReplyDeleteIt does not matter whether the council tax payers want a CPO or not as they have elected the council to do their best for Thanet and if the tax payers don't like the decisions made then they can exercise their displeasure at the ballot box. Its probably because there are elections coming that Manson has become an issue for MP's and councillors alike. The difference being that councillors are playing the wait and see game and can blame the lawyers and aviation experts if they recommend that an airport is not viable and the CPO has no legal basis.
DeleteLooks like avid Manston supporter Peter has come to realise that there is no compelling case in the public interest and wants the law changed so that councils can grab land regardless.
and your just a margate based person who is sadly misguided. Now how does that feel seeing as you state things as facts without any thing to back it up.
Deleteso a simple question where does "dave" live?
didnt think you knew
Deleteand hopefully you can learn some manners somewhere. the only thing you can't do on here is block me like you did on twitter but then manners is something you sadly lack.
DeleteThanks have a very full one Ta. spent this morning discussing grant funding and this afternoon planting donated plants to brighten up a listed garden. I can, of course, put you in touch with people needing volunteers however I'm sure with the time you spend saving Manston you don't have any time to make a difference to your neighbourhood
DeleteI'm sure but maybe not the way you think
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DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeletePurple Om seeks the moral high ground when it suits him. He sometimes makes some well thought out comments, but when he rants he should not be surprised when some of his wilder thoughts and ideas are attacked.
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DeleteEMBOB are you that stupid and idiotic???? Why cant you even type numbers did you mum or dad not teach you? I thought the petition had 26,500 not 26,5000 people who signed it? For someone who is meant to be so fuc*ing great you are sh*t
Deletewhen the ideas are "flights of fantasy" then robust debate will deal with that issue but when the person is ridiculed then the debate is out of order.
DeleteIt is patently obvious, with some, that their only argument is to attack the person and not the idea. as an example one person, when pushed says "I don't care" meaning he didn't care whether I support Manston or not. I believe I was called a socialist for some reason when the point I had made was unanswerable.
He has even blocked me on twitter as his only way of controlling his point of view so I cannot see what he tweets. The strange thing he doesn't understand twitter and it doesn't work.
EMBOB as one who follows the many FB groups supporting Manston (and some that don't) the petition with the signatures were collected in all the tourist towns and cities surrounding Thanet. Some even boasted signatures from them same tourists which as you probably know in Canterbury come from all over the world.
DeleteIt is a shame the leaders haven't seen fit to say what the petition asked them to sign
Sorry Om, 26,500, you were quite right to pick me up on that. As someone who is critical of others who can't spell etc. I expect to be pulled up when I get it wrong.
DeleteI believe however that you should change your screen name from Purple Om, PO, to something more appropriate, such as Cool Universal Nihilistic Troll. My screen name is reduced to EMBOB. See You Next Time.
Barry, the petition presented to TDC can be found at http://democracy.thanet.gov.uk/documents/s37473/Petition%20-%20Kent%20International%20Airport.pdf. But you may already know that. It refers to the "Prayer"
DeleteOf course street petitions can be signed by anybody. Many years ago, for my sins, I stood on streets and interviewed people for market research. We had a range of filtering questions to make sure we were only asking the right people for the particular survey. Perhaps a market research company could be instructed to carry out a survey in Thanet, asking a range of age groups and social status, i.e. A, B, C1, C2, D and E. The trouble with Thanet is that there are plenty of Es and very few others.
Your not much of a Wordsworth And Nobody Knows Everything Right ?
DeleteWith a population of 135,000 Thanet would be hard pushed to find 100,000 to sign a petition, assuming they were all able to read and write. i.e. babes in arms etc. And again, with a registered electorate of about 136,000 for Thanet North and South constituencies it would be a big ask, even if all were in favour. So a petition of 26,500 is not bad. And before anybody shouts, I know that many of the signatures may well have come from outside the area.
DeleteReplyDelete
EMBOB, 11:27pm,
DeleteI did those surveys for a couple of years in London for GFK and IPSOS; both on the street and around selected houses, especially the big London council estates. Many of these surveys were weighted. It was interesting and an eye opener. I have always been pleased that I did it. It taught me much. Not least about the mathematics of gathering and assessing the information. I enjoyed meeting the interviewees and was amazed at what they would reveal when relaxed in their own home. I agree that when the time comes to decide about the level of night flights TDC should invest in a good quality weighted survey.
just find it quite hilarious that people believe whatever they are told by politicians without checking the agenda of the politician first. Any one would think there is an election in the offing.
ReplyDeleteDon't be ridculous
ReplyDeletePeter the two campaigns that both received the required number of verified local signatures were Ramsgate Town Council and the Night flights campaign, which was also endorsed by the election. It was this that resulted in the no overall control when in other areas there was a swing to the Conservatives.
ReplyDeleteYou have to appreciate that this issue isn’t about getting the highest number you can, but getting over the triggering threshold, for instance the petition threshold for signatures to trigger a debate at TDC is 1,000 so assuming you need some extra ones to cover those rejected anything over about 1,500 is a waste of time.
The threshold for KCC is 1,400 but these have to be on the KCC electoral roll. Assuming that you want to save the airport I would think the KCC road would be the most likely. I think the Sir Roger Gale directing people to a cpo by TDC was a purely political move to put the Labour run TDC into a no win situation, particularly when you consider that TDC had just lost there only lawyer and KCC has one of the best legal teams in the country.
I think the underlying issue here is that the main petition should have been aimed at KCC and I think the best direction here would have been to petition KCC to hold a consultation asking what people wanted in relation to the airport.
This is a much stronger approach than getting them to debate the issue, and worked with Ramsgate Town Council and the Night flights campaign, however the number of signatures would have to be higher, it was 5% of the electorate for RTC,
There are bad airport solutions as well as good ones, the main elephant in the room with Manston Airport is that it doesn’t have planning permission so there doesn’t appear to be any way of ensuring that the airport remains an airport other than the socialist solution of public ownership.
You have to appreciate that unlike a planning consent, which is attached to a site, Manston ran as an airport on a series of agreements with companies, these agreements are now with the company that Ann Gloag owns and cannot be bought with a cpo.
My understanding is that were the lengthily cpo process to be completed the legal position of the airport, as an airport, would be far from certain and were the council or anyone else to attempt to reopen it any member of the electorate could seek a judicial review, which would almost inevitably lead to a planning application.
Before planning consent could be sought the work would have to be done to obtain an environmental permit which I think was estimated at £6m in 2011. Then would follow the very expensive environmental impact assessment and because planning consent was being sought for an airport there would also be a public enquiry.
There is a difference between negativity and being realistic, frankly turning up with a petition with about a quarter of the number of signatures required for any action to be taken doesn’t inspire confidence, but most of all it make me suspect the motives of those involved, rather in the way I would consider a customer in my shop who tried to buy a £4 book with a £1.
doubt if anything you come up with Michael will change any minds I suspect the 7 months Iris talks about will take up to a date close to May 2015 when everything changes
ReplyDeletePeter your full of SH*T
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ReplyDeleteOm don't you get it. None of them care whether you think that or not they don't really have opinions they just get a thrill about upsetting other people. it's the "throw a pebble in the pond" syndrome.
ReplyDeleteLook at Peter's response when I asked him to say whether I support Manston or not "I don't care" was the answer.
Barry thanks for that, but I have decided to troll them for a while so I wont be posting anything other than insults and snipes for a good while lets see how they like it
ReplyDeleteom please don't however ask michael to intervene if it gets out of hand
ReplyDeleteBarry I would love to have a straight forward debate but with people like peter john and embob it's just impossible I cant see why Michael puts up with them. Thanet blogging has been dwindling since those 3 have been trolling anybody who doesn't hold the same view. A very sad state of affairs.
ReplyDeleteSorry Purple Om, if you can't take honest criticism then go and find a blog where everybody agrees with everyone else. I believe Facebook is such a place. As far as I can tell Om you have only been using that name and picture for a few weeks. You could of course have been entering comments under a different name for years, but to me you are a new kid on the block, and as for me, I have only been around for about a year, first as Bemused of Birchington and now as Even more Bemused of Birchington. Prior to that I was known as anon. Doubtless you will come back with what you consider to be a witty response but I won't hold my breath. And if you think that posting insults and snipes will solve your perceived problem then think on.
ReplyDeleteThe key document in the CPO process would appear to be the statement of reasons, which is used to present the case to the minister I believe. It follows that would only make sense if the local plan promotes the correct area to be used as an airport. To be fair to Iris, she made that point strongly on Saturday at the Save Manston meeting, and responses to the local plan could well be key elements in laying the groundwork for any CPO. Of course, the failure of Clive Harts administration to progress the local plan is glossed over, particularly s it nearly did not want Manston in their corporate plan at all.
ReplyDeleteAnn Gloag's behaviour in shutting Manston seems to have thrown a spanner in the currently progressing local plan as it seems to have stopped. Can we get it progressed forthwith Chris as it would seem that people believe the current plan will not see the light of day just in case someone decides to build a few houses on the site
DeleteAs I see it any CPO against Gloag will go to the high court and Gloag will have the best barrister's money can buy. That's if it ever goes that far, as you can imagine with a knight as a brother plus being a billionaire who will have friends in very high places. Although the conservative party will be happy to get their own back on someone who donates a lot to the SNP.
DeleteHowever, must also add that when challenged on the Labour stance on night flights, described as flexibility on the shoulder periods, and 1 or 2 scheduled flights during the night (not my description, quoting from a former airport employee at the meeting) Iris stated she stood by the anti night flights manifesto commitment of the labour group to last until spring 2015. She would not comment on questions from the floor about instigating a local referendum on the issue, to run alongside the CPO testing/proving process. There is a real contradiction here in that it is pretty clear, if only in external perception, that the opposition of the local authority to any flexibility did play a part in keeping investors away. The obvious 2, most often quoted being Easijet and Ryan Air, whom everyone knows use their aircraft to the edges of time slots, early and late, and whose schedules would be in conflict with the stated local authority position. We should however be quite relaxed about this, as Iris, heading for Ireland on holiday stated she would be calling on Michael O Leary whilst she is there. On the other hand, any statement of reasons will, presumably, have to justify how the CPO works in the interests of the local economy when repeating the business strait jacket which has contributed to some of the previous failures. You can't have it both ways; stating a vital interest whilst hobbling its value and operation.
ReplyDeleteMichael, whilst accepting the Greek v geek as an error, the way you presented the information on the Netherlands and Greece does have echoes of xenophobia, or even racist overtones, something you are quick to pick up in others speeches and comments. At least as interesting is your choice to attack Oscar Maynard today, when the Save Manston fb page, of which you are a member, states he is away. Just a triple oversight I am sure. Your assertion that the only relevant number is the trigger threshold is an interesting one. Do you really believe sheer numbers are not impressive as well? Before you answer, please be aware your hero, young Will, went out of his way to praise the number success at full council, stating he knew just how hard getting such numbers is. He followed this on Saturday with a stirring condemnation of Paul Carter for not personally replying to hundreds of emails. Even as the applause of this ludicrous statement died away, there were clear mutters around the room, asking if that would be a sensible use of the KCC leader's time. Right now, there is little new to report, and the more politicians are tempted to fill the gap with what editors used to call padding, the more frustrated all will feel. I attended part of the meeting, without feeling it necessary to stand and proclaim, but listened with great care.
ReplyDeleteIt should perhaps also be noted that the night flight consultation was proclaimed a huge success when it was undertaken, but was weighted to those directly under the flightpath
and why should it not be weighted to those under the flight path?
DeleteBecause turkeys don't vote for Christmas. Labour pulled the referendum on night flights because it was too expensive, but not before the turkeys had been asked in potential Labour wards.
DeleteChris what I am getting at here are: the rules that apply for petitioning the uk government - uk citizens only, the rules that apply for petitioning KCC – KCC electoral roll only, the rules for petitioning TDC – basically a total mess and presumably as a member for TDC something which you could do something about.
DeleteConsultation rules are different with those from outside the electoral and taxpaying area who are affected being allowed to contribute but weighting going to the taxpayers.
My take here is that only members of the electoral roll should be able to petition TDC, not people from Greece, Deal or anywhere else.
The consultation on night flights received the largest response to any consultation that TDC has undertaken in recent memory. This was stated categorically by officers at one of the council meetings. It seems strange that when given the opportunity to express a view, the 'thousands' that now seem to want the airport to reopen at any cost, chose not to do so. Of course, one has to remember that many of the 'thousands' reside outside Thanet. At least the consultation undertaken by TDC had legitimacy. My primary concern over the Save Manston petition was with regard to the number of people signing it from outside Thanet hence my complete shock to discover that no verification of signatures was undertaken at all. From the great petition of 1848, submitted by the Chartists, to more recent petitions discovered to have bogus names (e.g. the petition against gay marriage in Scotland), there is a history of fraudulent petitions which is a)why they should be verified and b)why the weight of argument and evidence should hold sway. Please find the response to the FOI below:
DeleteQ1 How many of the signatures on the petition supporting a CPO for Manston which was presented to TDC on 10th July 2014 are from people who are resident in Thanet?
This information is not held, because no check of the residential addresses of petitioners is undertaken.
Q2 What mechanism did TDC use to check whether or not the signatories are Thanet residents?
No check of the residential addresses of petitioners is undertaken.
Q3 Has this petition been cross-checked against the electoral roll?
No check of the residential addresses of petitioners is undertaken.
Q4 If so, when did officers check that signatories were Thanet residents?
Not applicable.
Q5 If not, why not and who took the decision not to check whether the petition's signatures were from real individuals who also live in Thanet?
Thanet District Council decided there should be no check of the residential addresses of petitioners. You can find relevant reports here:
http://democracy.thanet.gov.uk/mgIssueHistoryHome.aspx?IId=7496
The issue as to whether a residential qualification should be imposed upon petitioners was addressed specifically and Councillors agreed not to impose such a requirement. This report contains a summary of that discussion:
http://democracy.thanet.gov.uk/ieIssueDetails.aspx?IId=7496&PlanId=0&Opt=3#AI5831
If you are dissatisfied with the handling of your request, you have the right to ask for an internal review. Internal review requests should be submitted within two months of the date of receipt of the response to your original letter and should be addressed to: Information Request Assessor, Thanet District Council, P O Box 9 Cecil Street, Margate Kent CT9 1XZ, or send an email to foi@thanet.gov.uk.
The paperwork says that the rules for paper petitions are that names and addresses should be supplied and that the rules for E-petitions should be the same, I will do another post about it, the trouble is that it will probably be take as relating to SMA rather than ensuring good and normal council practice.
DeleteHonest criticism, you have got to be joking! why do you think its your job to criticise at all, if you disagree with the facts in my comments then please feel free to put your own point of view, but the insults and snipes or pointing out a spelling mistakes with no facts in your comments makes you a troll along with peter and john. Three Worried And Tired Scrotum's.
ReplyDeleteYou are an idiot
ReplyDeleteBecause, Diane, it all hinges on the nature of the weighting. Weighting to most means applying a mathematical multiplier to a single vote or input. So, for example, one view from under the flight path may be deemed to have a value of 2.5 times that of a resident further away. I asked then Council Leader Clive Hart what the weighting level was; he replied no mathematical basis but that the Cabinet members would read the addresses of the responses and personally weight accordingly. That is the type of decision which adds to the reputation of the council of lacking transparency.
ReplyDeleteChris you are going down the path of trying to equate being against night flights with being against the airport or being socialist.
DeleteYou seem to have missed the point entirely, which is that all of the areas that responded were against night flights, including those areas in Thanet but not under the flight path.
Here are the responses to the night flights consultation before weighting, these are taken from the public documents pack for EXTRAORDINARY MEETING OF THE COUNCIL Thursday, 24th May, 2012
Total responses of those under the flight path: 1082
In favour: 10%
Opposed: 89%
Middle ground/unclear: 1%
Total responses of those outside the flight path but within Thanet: 875
In favour: 44%
Page 7
Opposed: 54%
Middle ground/unclear: 2%
Total responses of those within Thanet: 1957
In favour: 25%
Opposed: 74%
Middle ground/unclear: 1%
Total responses of those outside of Thanet: 318
In favour: 30%
Opposed: 66%
Middle ground/unclear: 4%
Michael, you are going down the path of evading the context of the consultation, the deliberately limiting changes made by Clive Hart's Cabinet (which we should remember included Iris Johnston) to the scope and nature of the consultation from proactive to reactive. ReCtive consultations are known to attract more negative than positive comments
DeleteFurther, by quoting raw statistics out of that context you lead your readers to an erroneous conclusion. David Green stated quite openly in Cabinet last week that the decisions and consultation on night flights were not meant to damage the airport; but his statement and tone cleArly indicated he was aware it had. A little similar humility from your good self would not hurt, particularly in the unanswered context of your attack on Oscar Maynard which started this debate
DeleteIn the same vein the majority of responses were sought through the TDC website, and the planned wider research by an independent research survey was abandoned by Labour on cost grounds. From memory the putative cost was £90,000; peanuts compared to the million plus squandered on a futile battle against live animal exports. It also took no account of if the flight path residents bought or moved in after the airport was operating. As Cllrs we are all familiar with people who buy a property near a pub, zebra crossing, bus stop etc and then launch a campaign to move, close or change things which they could and should have realised were risks of the property they bought; and may have explained the 'bargain' price they paid. That said, the issues of health etc must be seriously studied and balanced against societal benefit; a process which must have the transparency and trust so clearly lacking from the previous approaches to the subject.
ReplyDeleteChirs
DeleteSo what your saying is that if anybody bought a house under a flight path with 10 planes a day or less then they should not complain if the number of planes increase to 100 a day and 10 though the night?
That's like saying if you bought a house with a B road outside you should not complain if the council want to make it into a motorway?
This sort of negative attitude towards the People of Ramsgate is what makes investors run a mile from investing in Ramsgate and has done for many years. The people of Ramsgate are feed up with the airport and its promises to employ 1000s for Thanet at the expense of Ramsgate
And now that it has truly failed over 15 years to ever make a single penny profit it has closed and should never be reopened especially at the tax payer expense and before you say that riveroak will fund a CPO the tax payer has already spent £16.000 and TDC have not even started. Manston airport has cost the tax payer many millions over the years and not a penny more should be spent as TDC have public buildings that they are meant to be looking after and they have been left to rack and ruin.
Peter Cucksfield why are you so sad?
DeletePurple Om, I had the advantage of talking frequently and in detail to a number of the night flight campaigners. Almost all admitted they were aware of the airport when buying, and knew the risk they were taking with their purchase. My point is simply
Deletethat this somewhat undermines much of the campaign and distorts the views from elsewhere.
Chris I live under the flightpath and when the night flights were threatening us there was no one who thought we could be kept all night by planes I have a young child why the fu*k would you think it would be acceptable for Ramsgate people to have to endure that so you can reopen a privately run failed airfield. I do hope you are one of the people that lost their job it serves you right for trying to make 1000s of people lives a nightmare
DeletePerp,
DeleteI was a young child in London during the Blitz. The bombs, doodle bugs an AA never kept me awake, nor did it frighten me. It was the world into which I was born and in common with all children I accepted my world as normal. My parents never showed fear or distress so I was not bothered by the noise. Even though that noise meant death for someone. In my experience what most disturbs young children is their parents faffing and flapping around.
You should avoid using your young child as tool to advance your cause.
Perp,
DeleteWhile I'm at it: your remark to Chris Wells in which you say, "I do hope you are one of the people that lost their job it serves you right..." is gratuitous and spiteful. It displays much about you as a person. I have told you several times before, you are the type of person who would stab his best friend in the back just so you could write something vile on his tombstone.
Your only redeeming feature, Perp, is that if you threw a rock at the ground you'd miss.
Barry I hope this helps.
Deletehttp://www.kentonline.co.uk/thanet/news/attempt-to-buy-manston-airport-20513/
John I told you to not comment on what I have said to others and I wont comment on your posts so FU*K OFF and never talk to me again
DeletePeter the noise for a plane is far nosier than a train and if your trains run all night you would have a right to complain
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DeletePeter I don't live next to any airport I live a few miles away from a large brownfield site about the same distance as the border with Broadstairs and I don't care what's built there
DeleteAs long as you let us know how your getting on with living in your luxurious pent house with a sea view next to a train line in Margate, who's the fool?
DeleteDo you know, I was beginning to think Purple Om had changed his ways. But it seems I was wrong. See my remarks re Jekyll and Hyde below. He is like a spoilt child, a dog in the manger. If he can't have his own way then watch out all those who decry his efforts. My view is that he has got his way re Manston and should remain silent.
DeleteI lived for a time next to the busiest airfield in the RAF, at Khormaksar in Aden. There were over 5000 (correct number Om) aircraft movements a month, ranging from the single pioneer to the largest military and commercial aircraft of the time, and believe me, some of these aircraft were far noisier than anything flying today. And yet I never failed to get a good night sleep. I also live adjacent to a runway where V bombers took off and landed, again I slept well.
I believe that people who lived near the former hoverport received double glazing free of charge. Perhaps if Manston gets the go ahead then affected residents could apply.
And while I am here, I will double space long entries in future so that detractors can read much more easily between the lines
and apply their own interpretation to my comments. There might even be room for the odd elephant or two.
There has never been night flight at manston so why should there be now is it because without them it would be doomed to fail?
DeleteA sweeping statement Om. Manston has been an airport for nearly 100 years and there must have been at least one night flight in that time. Not to forget the gallant airmen of the Fleet Air Arm who took off in a snowstorm to attack a German battleship and gave their lives so that twerps like you could throw insults around like confetti.
DeletePerp,
DeleteYou have said, "John I told you to not comment on what I have said to others and I wont comment on your posts so FU*K OFF and never talk to me again."
Peter Checksfield has already admomished you on this point. Never the less I take your point for I know how bumptious you are when you feel yourself thwarted. In future I will address my comments about you to a third party. You can imagine that you are listening through the keyhole, which well excite you.
Twerps, spoilt child, Jekyll and Hyde. In your last to comments to me and you call me the troll?
DeleteIf you like/want to live over a busy flightpath that's up to you but the people of Thanet have spoken on the night flights and they dont want to have them see Michael's run down on who voted and where
This is all irrelevant as Manston will never be a day time airport no matter how many cllrs and MPs call for its reopening as they and all the sensible people know TDC are never going to get a blank cheque from anybody to buy a maybe airport without proper planning permission without an environmental permit without room for expansion past 6 million passengers without any equipment radar/control tower
You must face the facts its closed and will never reopen the staff have other jobs and Ramsgate is feeling the benefit without being on the flightpath
So we could argue to the cows come home and it would not change the outcome not 1 jot.
When I have commented with you pro-Manston lot before you all said it would never close but it has and you were all wrong. ,
John
DeleteDONT TALK TO ME
John
DeleteDONT TALK ABOUT ME
John
DeleteDON'T COMMENT ON MY COMMENTS
Dear Geraldine,
DeleteThe perp has got over excited and is shouting at me. I assume that he is at work and I can't help wondering whether his superiors believe it's ok for him to waste his time in this way.?
Perp is a twerp of the first order. He had better watch his computer because the sensible perp will be back. And John, I can't believe he would be employed, in fact he is probably unemployable.
DeleteEMBOB,
DeleteI suspect you are right.
Peter please reread the comment guidelines below, taking particular note of “comments saying that an anonymous comment was made by a named real person”,
DeleteAnd finally, at least for this morning, this campaign has produced other interesting conflicts, our Green Councillor for example, who seems not to have read his party's view on air transport. In a spirit of comradeship I quote it below:
ReplyDeleteAims and Objectives
TR510 The Green Party seeks a reduction in the amount and impact of air transport.
TR511 It is essential that the demand for air transport is managed in a way compatible with wider social and environmental objectives. The Green Party advocates a drastic reduction in the number of journeys made by air for whatever purpose. We must first discourage the growth of air transport.
Aims and Objectives
TR510 The Green Party seeks a reduction in the amount and impact of air transport.
TR511 It is essential that the demand for air transport is managed in a way compatible with wider social and environmental objectives. The Green Party advocates a drastic reduction in the number of journeys made by air for whatever purpose. We must first discourage the growth of air transport.
Chris, nothing gets joined up does when emotions are running high and politicians are involved. Our voices were drowned out locally with the Gay Marriage campaign. You could argue that the managed decline of air transport that the Green Party seeks should involve greater use of Manston, which is already there, rather than building new airports in the sea?
Deletecorrection : "nothing gets joined up does it?" - late night....
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DeleteI and many others were/are neutral, others wondering why on earth gay people would want to copy heterosexuals just when the institution is going out of fashion anyway. Anyhow, I did clash with quite a few working in the public sector who were campaigning for it, and a rift opened up between us on their approach to "equal marriage" and other issues, so we tend to avoid each other now. When it comes to sexuality, it is a delicate matter of course asking people to articulate what they really want in any kind of open forum. However in 2009 I did find myself taking a few guys over to the Faversham Community Cafe quite regularly, and we were starting to do just that because of the convivial welcoming atmosphere, but ultimately there was no-one able to help us develop our ideas. I have kept the notes and emails from that time though, and we somehow got a constitution agreed and bank account opened in the December of 2009 whilst there was still enough interest in doing something, and to capture the mood of that time - so we remain frozen in time!
DeleteShould gay people not have a choice in the matter?
DeleteI can agree with you there Peter. A certain "DFL" got herself an MBE for her work on this issue, and she put it around that I was bad news and best avoided, which was huge motivation for getting a blog started.
DeleteAnd I had a really good sexual relationship going in 2006, but he turned out to be a "Bunny Boiler" ie wanted a ring on his finger (Civil Partnership as it was then). I wonder if we would still be going now if it weren't for all this legislation? Guess I will never know....
You would think that a Jewish person would be against a far right party like UKIP it was not long ago you were singing their praises but each to their own?
DeletePeter what you do is up to you. I think that there should be no discrimination from straight to gay and if straight people want to be married they can and it should be the same for gay people
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
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DeletePersonal threats inferred or otherwise ate not allowed here
DeletePeter obscene language is not allowed here, further comment containing obscene language will be spammed and my result in Google blocking your ip address and preventing access to Goole facilities.
DeletePeter “ss” appears 244 times on my moderation page so you need to email me the timestamp, frankly leaving hostile comment to antagonise others and then complaining about the results is just wasting my time and as I said if you don’t like the guidelines here then kindly don’t comment here.
Deleteonly trolls get the outed treatment or are you in favour of gun toting Arizonian trolls Peter?
ReplyDeleteDon't understand the Ramsgate jibe Peter or are you trying to perpetuate the myth that margate is some sort of enclave where everyone is on the side of manston and Ramsgate people are all against. somewhat of an extraordinary statement when you don't have a clue as you haven't spoken to every resident
One of the reasons the council has dragged its feet on producing the Local Framework Plan is to allow housebuilding by EKO and thus get TDC out of a multi million pound hole and at the same time generate up to £3 millions for TDC from the government's new build grant.
ReplyDeleteYou cant blame Hart and co for setting up EKO and the burden it has plced on the council but the tory administrations at KCC and TDC.
I looked for TDCs 2014 local plan and could not find it, so I take it it does not exist?
ReplyDeleteOn another matter does anybody know how much TDC paid for the dreamland site not in total just the land?
£20,000,000 for Dreamland in 2005. A bit tricky to buy the land and not the buildings on it, But I'm sure you will come up with a figure which won't be too far off the mark.
DeleteWell £20m was not a bad thing for Margate as I believe that Thanet is a holiday destination and would be very well suited for Londoners as it has been in the past. To think that Ramsgate would be a good place for a travel hub was a very bad idea as its located in probably the worst place. As for Manston being a cargo airport again its in the tip of Kent far away from anybody unless they are in east Kent unlike East Midlands airport as it could not be better positioned for cargo in fact every other airport is in a better position than Manton. How TDC can think that Manston has a viable future as a cargo airport is beyond me.
DeleteFacebook is a great thing and SMA have used it to their advantage by getting anti other airport supporters to sign their petition. The real truth of the matter is when you have had your marches and demo's the biggest figure reported by an interdependent reporter (BBC) was 300 many of who were children who were dragged along. Now if you think about it 144 people lost their jobs so if each of the people that lost their job bought 1 other person that would make it close to your highest turnout. If you think that 300 is a big turnout then consider the Pleasurama site demo where a week before a post was put on FORS and 200 people turned out with nowhere near the same amount of publicity to get people there
ReplyDeleteWe do not have an airport in Thanet, and if one were to plan the needs for an airport, either for passengers, or freight, Thanet would not be the location to choose, Michael has already explained that if a possible CPO was brought, and was successful, we would not acquire an airport, but a brownfield site. This is the reality
ReplyDeleteA CPO would be asking for a precedent in law to be set. Won't happen.
ReplyDeleteThe debate so far has failed to weigh that Ms Gloag has almost certainly commissioned a commercial airport viability study. The likelihood being the expert weight in her case cannot be matched by the wing and a prayer repeat loss history position TDC would have to take.
Thirdly even if a CPO was granted what would be the contingency for when the airport fails and a change of use becomes inevitable. Would the situation entail a further tranche of damages to Ms Gloag ?
It seems to me that Ms Gloag is in a very strong position "Heads I win Tails you lose".
I know Iris has visited a competent person. I do not know what advice he gave. But I would doubt he advocated the CPO route other than as a political ruse.
It is difficult to believe that Ann Gloag had a commercial airport viability study carried out before she paid £1 for the whole shooting match. Sir Roger Gale said on television yesterday that Ann Gloag had told him she was going to invest heavily in the airport over two years. What changed her mind?
DeleteOn a separate but related matter, I have just returned by bus from QEQM. The reason I went by bus was because I cannot guarantee finding a parking place, having very nearly been late for a previous appointment for exactly that reason. Fortunately the outward journey was on time but the return bus was twelve minutes late when it picked me up. I also noticed that the hospital car park was full on both sides of the hospital. This says one thing. Thanet is overcrowded. My point is that if houses are built on Manston then without additional support services then QEQM will be gridlocked for most of the day.
Anne Gloag employed the person that was the boss of Southend airport and credited with attracting airlines and seeing passenger number grow to 970,000 last year. He must know a thing or two about whether n airport is going to be viable and how much investment would be needed,
DeleteI know that Peter. I read on the internet whilst looking for something else that Thanet is the 2nd most densely populated area of Kent. http://thanet.gov.uk/about-us/corporate-plan/about-your-district/ refers, and an extract below.
DeleteThanet has a population of 132,300 [1] which is the fourth most populated district in Kent, with the second highest population density. Most of the population live on the coast that links the resorts of Ramsgate, Broadstairs and Margate. We have the second lowest proportion of 25 to 39 year olds and the highest number of over 65 year olds in the county.
To give you a snapshot of the people who live in Thanet, if we had 100 people to reflect the make-up of the district;
52 would be female and 48 male
6 would be pre-school age
12 would be 15 – 24 and 21 would be 65 or older
21 would claim one of the key benefits
9 people would be claiming employment & support allowance (ESA) and incapacity benefit
11 would be from black and ethnic minority groups
EMBOB There is a military saying, "Don't assume, check !"
DeleteIn answer to my argument, that Ann Gloag has a superior commercial airport viability study, you suggest that it is unlikely she has such a study. You fail to address the other aspect of your response, which is "IF Ms Gloag has such a study would it be superior ?"
I think it is very telling that you avoided the elephant in the room. How unassailable is the CPO viability case ?
There is, of course, rather more to the purchase than Ms Gloag paying a quid for Manston. There were the debts of the previous owner (IE Evidence of the loss making facts of the commercial enterprise) taken into account in the sales contract. A fact which is not at all helpful to the cause of those applying for a CPO.
Suppose a CPO is granted. The commercial airport makes losses and fails. The issue of change of use arises again (Reality knocks twice) and the alternative use is housing. Wouldn't Ms Gloag be legally entitled to a second tranche of damages. IE A share of any profits generated by the change of use she would have been prevented from conducting herself ?
My guess is that Iris has already been advised that the CPO application case is fatally flawed. Quite what game she is playing I don't know. She has also been advised about the sustainable employment opportunities that can be generated by imaginative support for a housing development.
Absolutely amazing. I make a simple statement and suddenly I am avoiding the elephant in the room and failing to address other matters.. The fact remains that the new owner of Manston must have known what she was doing but was economical with the veracity when she told Roger Gale that she would invest heavily in the airport. If she had a study, superior or otherwise, and superior is your word dwileflunker, not mine, before paying her Scottish pound, then she must have known exactly where she was going, or she was badly advised. We will probably never know which.
DeleteI know very little about the legal aspects of CPOs so I avoid making comments about it, but will cast opinions which do not necessarily have to rely on fact, but which are based on what is morally right or wrong. And of course not everyone will agree.
And Fred changed several train wheels before they found out his hammer was cracked.
why would that be necessary. As Michael has stated to get TDC to discuss a petition Prayer then only 1000 valid signatures are required the rest is overkill. And we have had 3 successful petitions the last of which forced TDC to reconsider handing over the freehold of the site. When last I looked SMA have only generated publicity Manston is still closed
ReplyDeleteFunny how a petition of some 26,000 plus signatures is now irrelevant yet a couple of years back, 2,000 opposed to nights flights was considered significant and enough for Thanet Labour councillors to claim overwhelming support for their opposition to night flights. The bias of Thanet blogs remains I see. Glad I moved.
ReplyDeleteAllan it depends who does the poll one the one hand SMAs facebook poll and on the other a proper company that asked people face to face at their address.
Deletewhat you came to Ramsgate wow. and why do you think its still a bombsite? failure of TDC in picking the "developer" maybe
ReplyDeletewhere do you measure the 15 years from?
ReplyDeleteInteresting post on FB from a Manston page. Its an open group, Thought I'd post it however not my words
ReplyDeleteLets have some home truths
1. AG is the legal owner of Manston, and nobody can force her to run an airport, or anything else on property she owns
2. A CPO was NEVER a flier (no pun intended). taking someone property, to give it to someone you prefer It is fraught with legal difficulty, if it's possible at all, not withstanding the fact that TDC can;t afford it, neither can KCC, Riveraok can't fund it, or the legal action, given that they will benefit from it.
3. Riveroak is a property development company with a dubious record (if any at all) of running or developing airports.
4. AG defrauded nobody
5. Who her associates worked for in 10 years ago makes no difference whatsoever with the perfectly legal transaction to buy the airport
6. How much money Stagecoach makes in general, or in Thanet in particular is utterly irrelevant
7. Even if TG win their case, the firecrash tenders, gennies, ILS, most of the comms, and all the airline associated kit will STILL be sold.
8. leave to try a case in high court merely means that it has enough merit to warrant some Barristers making a lot of cash. The chances of success for TG are remote at best, and they WILL relocate to Lydd.(I note they lost so one bit correct)
You need to go to specsavers I did say not my words and this was on a Manston support group. but then you don't do facebook neither do you read posts properly
DeletePeter what dont you understand, there are people that are negative about Manston. I never want to see Manston ever fly again. I think its very bad for Ramsgate.
DeleteI have already seen a good increase in the price of my house that means Ramsgate is on the rise that can only be good for us. Soon we will see not an empty shop or a run down building and the next time you visit you can marvel at the wonder that is Ramsgate
Perhaps Peter it is you who is "Negative" about Manston ? By being irrationally opposed to a housing development.
DeleteDid you see my comment above Peter Cucksfield? You think that the lower classes live in Ramsgate and where you live are the upper classes? When you have nothing except a rented loft space. I would not normally put a man down for such a thing but in your case I'll make an exception
ReplyDeleteBut you don't own it, and when you say luxury you mean luxury for Margate what would be crap for the rest of the UK
ReplyDeleteLets face it Peter you are the biggest failure and all you have left is to insult and snipe at people on blogs your so bad that I have seen other people talk about you and not in a good way its a shame but you will one day understand that's its not good for you
Peter "Luxury" how funny
ReplyDeletewhat event occurred 15 years ago that you seem to think the Pleasurama protest stems from?
strange that you think FORS has been protesting that long your sense of time is somewhat distorted, planning was only granted in January 2004. 15 years ago is 1999 hence my surprise at your statement.
If Thanet is looking for an employer to get the unemployment figures down
ReplyDeletehttp://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent-business/county-news/seaside-towns-lose-thousands-of-jobs-20556/
I have come to the conclusion that at least one commentator on this blog is in actual fact two different people using the same computer. As if Dr Jeckyll and Mr Hyde were alive and well and living in Ramsgate.
DeleteAre we talking about the same person Peter?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteMichael,
DeletePresumably you are also OK with Purple Om wishing me an early death from cancer and then threatening me with a heart attack; plus saying he was pleased that the Manson employees lost their jobs because they deserved it for annoying him?
From: Peter Checksfield
DeleteTo: Michael Child
Sent: Tue, 22 Jul 2014 23:45
Subject: Blog
Michael, I've had to report yet more rude and offensive comments from your blog today. Moderate things properly!
--
https://twitter.com/petercmargate
Peter perhaps you didn't get my reply, here it is:
From michaelchild michaelchild@aol.comhide details
To peterchecksfield
Peter, in simple terms, there isn’t anyone out there to report them to apart from me, Google only have one system which is aimed at deleting whole blogs, by this I mean you may manage to get them to delete the whole of thanetonline, but not individual comments. Of course that may be your objective, in which case I leave the whole thing up to Google.
My recommendation is to read the comment guideline at the bottom of each post taking particular notice of “If you feel that someone has left a comment that is offensive and directed at you personally please email me (link on the sidebar) asking to have it removed, you will need to tell which post and the date and timestamp of the offending comment. Please do not reply to the offending comment as I will assume you continuing the dialogue as meaning that you want the comments left there.”
Best regards Michael
Websites
http://thanetonline.blogspot.com/
http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/
http://www.thanetonline.com/
The bottom line here is that if you don't tell me what you want removed, then I don't know.
John you know how to get comments removed, don't rely to them and email me.
Peter if you don’t like the way I run this blog then kindly don’t comment here.
DeleteMichael,
DeleteStop wriggling. Purple Om has made two anti semitic remarks. Curb him. Either you do this or I will make a formal complaint to Google.
John the same applies to you Peter or anyone else, I can’t find an anti-Semitic comments in the thread, so you either need to email me telling me which comments, page url and timestamp, or you can go down the complain to goggle route which may result in them deleting the entire blog, my take here is that it is up to them.
DeleteBut basically if you don’t like the blog guidelines then kindly don’t comment here.
Michael,
DeleteDo not try your obfuscations on me. You read every comment, you revel in it. You know full well the comments to which I refer. You are saying nothing more than that you agree with them. In these circumstances I will leave it for Google to decide.
My take here is that I very much like the blog guidelines. I also believe they should apply to you.
John frankly I am reading the new ones at the moment but would rather be doing something else, but no I have no idea which comment you are referring to.
DeleteI have checked the whole page all 141 instances of SS and can’t find it.
The only unusual instance of SS I can find is
“Peter ChecksfieldJuly 23, 2014 3:48 pm
SS? I believe it was Manston that actually kept them away, do some research.”
As I said before, if you don’t wish to abide by the blog guidelines, which in this instance is emailing me the timestamp then kindly don’t comment on this blog.
Michael,
ReplyDeleteYou should know by now that the gathering of statistics is the easy part. Publishing them raw is vacuous. The skill and brainwork lies in interpreting and analysing those raw statistics.
But maybe, Michael, you are guilty of nothing more than grinding your current axe of choice.
No idea whether the people of Ramsgate were happy or not. the Council negotiated with Jimmy Godden from 1998 until The CPO in 2001 then they put the land out to tender and accepted SFP in December 2002 protests started as soon as planning was applied for in November 2003 so to say the "people" accepted it as a vacant lot is somewhat disingenuous of you.
ReplyDeletesorry Peter it is only possible to complain about something when plans are submitted. Many people prior to this asked Councillors what is happening to be told its all in hand but we have to get the land back 1st. much as SMA are doing now.
ReplyDeleteTDC say it will take 7 months to appraise the situation and get advice. Good luck with that. It took 2 years to get permission to open the tunnels and 3 years to get permission to start on the old motor museum. How long from concept to opening for The Turner Centre? How long will it take for Dreamland (and thats another Godden Legacy)
BTW I am friends with some of the SMA people and they have said they have never heard of you bit odd that seeing as you are campaigning for Manston
in 1910/11 it may have but I doubt that would happen today and I suspect you know that look at Tesco/ Arlington kerfuffle
ReplyDeletePlease see response from TDC to FOI on the petition. So, basically, anyone can sit down and manufacture a petition.
ReplyDeleteQ1 How many of the signatures on the petition supporting a CPO for Manston which was presented to TDC on 10th July 2014 are from people who are resident in Thanet?
This information is not held, because no check of the residential addresses of petitioners is undertaken.
Q2 What mechanism did TDC use to check whether or not the signatories are Thanet residents?
No check of the residential addresses of petitioners is undertaken.
Q3 Has this petition been cross-checked against the electoral roll?
No check of the residential addresses of petitioners is undertaken.
Q4 If so, when did officers check that signatories were Thanet residents?
Not applicable.
Q5 If not, why not and who took the decision not to check whether the petition's signatures were from real individuals who also live in Thanet?
Thanet District Council decided there should be no check of the residential addresses of petitioners. You can find relevant reports here:
http://democracy.thanet.gov.uk/mgIssueHistoryHome.aspx?IId=7496
The issue as to whether a residential qualification should be imposed upon petitioners was addressed specifically and Councillors agreed not to impose such a requirement. This report contains a summary of that discussion:
http://democracy.thanet.gov.uk/ieIssueDetails.aspx?IId=7496&PlanId=0&Opt=3#AI5831
If you are dissatisfied with the handling of your request, you have the right to ask for an internal review. Internal review requests should be submitted within two months of the date of receipt of the response to your original letter and should be addressed to: Information Request Assessor, Thanet District Council, P O Box 9 Cecil Street, Margate Kent CT9 1XZ, or send an email to foi@thanet.gov.uk.