Royal Victoria Pavilion Ramsgate and Wetherspoons Update.

I would imagine that most of the readers of this blog know that The Royal Victoria Pavilion in Ramsgate is due to be turned into what is rumoured to be the largest pub in England by J D Wetherspoon.

Planning consent was granted on 13^th April and has now appeared on the council’s website see https://planning.thanet.gov.uk/online-applications/files/261DE52F8B42CC792F670E7C29FAF245/pdf/F_TH_14_1170-DECISION_NOTICE-382145.pdf

I understand that the leasehold has now been transferred to J D Wetherspoon and that the keys have been handed over, there is an element of hearsay in this.

The first activity, which is happening on site today, is the installation of an alarm system and the proper securing of the building.

I would say that it is reasonable to call this “work starts on the Pav” but haven’t headlined it this way as like so many things in Thanet, the information leaks out.

You can view all of the documents online by going to https://planning.thanet.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=ZZZZMPQEBJ826

Personally now that this is happening I am 100% behind it and hope the development is finished as soon as possible, I also hope that this will serve as a catalyst to get the other developments in this part of Ramsgate moving forward in some way that makes sense.

So wot’s it like inside, here are the links to the pictures I took of the inside

http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/pav2010/index.htm

http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/pav2010/id3.htm

http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/pav2010/id4.htm

http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/pav2010/id5.htm

Having just finished work and read through this blog post checking the links it seems that once again the council’s wretched planning website has gone down. Not my fault and I will try to copy the approval document when it comes back. In the meantime here are the books that went out in my bookshop today http://michaelsbookshop.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/chocolate-wars-in-bookshop.html   

As promised the decision notice click on it to big it

Some more progress paining The Royal Victoria Pavilion

Here is the sketch from Candy's café that I started the other day not far to go with this one now, see http://thanetonline.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/new-tdc-administrations-and-social.html

The picture for aspiring art critics, the square cloud and the triangular cloud where there when I painted the sky, honest guv.

All day breakfast and drink for £3 

Odd bit of architecture the Pav, I have just been looking through the architecture books in my bookshop and on the net for more information, no real luck so far.

Thanet is Rubbish, isn't it? Thanetonline wot blog? Ramsgate's Blue Flag beach vanishing? Wot wos the Ramsgate Society gutted? BBC Radio Kent goes Ga Ga. The Beetroot incident.

Do you get those moments ga ga or not when your mind goes blank? I had one on BBC Radio Kent today, I think it was around 11.30, I will look/listen later when I have finished work. I get a few of these will you say something about - well in this case Thanet - it's Rubbish here isn't it? Fairly frequently. 

I dfl'd well actually Salisbury, not London in around 1965, so I suppose technically I'm dfs - not to be confused with the sofa shop, and as teen everyone was always telling me Thanet is rubbish. I spent a lot of time, back then, sailing around the area in small boats, so if it was rubbish that was OK by me.

Anyway this morning the call form the BBC came and I could hear Simon Moores making a very good job of being interviewed in the background, obviously I'm up next - I have already told them that I will probably make a hash of it, as I don’t interview well. Then I'm on, as a bookseller I usually try to get the media by the incunabula or incunabula, being a bit uncertain about the plural of incunable, while obviously not going as far as saying "get your books from Michael's Bookshop, best sellers about Fanit from 1700 to last week" I do like to get a mention in on the media. Then it 'appened, the interviewer said. "So what's the latest post on your blog about?" Mind went totally blank - wot blog - what is a blog… It may be amusing to listen to if you can find it.

On yes Thanet - it's Rubbish here isn't it? Is a FaceBook group, see https://www.facebook.com/groups/257762494415612/ I am building up to doing much more with FaceBook so I may post some Thanet rubbish there as well as here.

After all of this I went on what Pevsner well technically - in Thanet, Newman calls a perambulation, noting (as it's all rubbish) nothing of architectural merit, apart from Lloyds Bank. Classical, a little ungainly in proportions, but with a delicate acanthus frieze and window tympana. 1895-6 and 1929 by T.N.Wilson.

Obviously there is nothing sic. Newman of architectural merit in Harbour Street, however the one that was the jeweller, possibly Hinds 58th verity, later - Impact (pedestrianisation) later tourist information, later piercing, later Ramsgate Society, Victorian stucco with Edwardian shopfront with stained glass panels, was a loss to me.

As you see from the pictures the building is now being gutted internally.

Perambulating on to the beach, it mostly wasn't there. As you see the lifeguards may soon be in need of their own services to rescue their hut. No worries as our antipodean friends would say, plenty of sand when the tide goes out.

Wot worries me is what protects the Pav, (originally built as a Concert Hall and Assembly Rooms in 1903. Designed by Stanley Davenport. Adshead and built by F.G. Minter of Putney. Ostensibly in the style of a Robert Adam orangery and based on the Little Theatre at Versailles; the whole was aimed as an exercise in the Adam style. Designed in 1 week, to be built in 6 weeks in time for the 1903 season.) when we have a high tide and a big storm.

On to Candy,s Cabin, brick faced, with 58ft lift… where on the crest of nervous energy occasioned by muffing up live radio I proceeded to further mess up my sketch of the Pav.

An artist's tip here, watch out for the beetroot if you have salad, eventually I capitulated, sketched the tea cabin thingy, cast concrete inclined roof… under a rather beetrooty moon, yes it soaks through many pages.       

Found it BBC Radio Kent Julia George http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02rt3d3#auto yours truly at 02.31.00 actually when it came to it at 02.25.00 Simon Moores was a bit of a dinosaur. 

New plans for The Royal Victoria Pavillion in Ramsgate published

As always they are on the council’s planning website www.ukplanning.com/thanet the planning reference is L/TH/14/1171 this wonderful council facility doesn’t let you make links to documents published there, they work for an hour or so and then you have to search the documents again. I assume this is designed to waste everyone’s time and our money.

I have published the main drawing here https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0erQxRYd9_rblNob3NDQ3NNZEk/view?usp=sharing

My take on this was to do what I could to get the building as a public leisure venue and now, having failed to do this, support the new compromise of turning most of it into a massive pub.

The snag in the planning application seems to be highlighted in the picture above, inasmuch as there isn’t a flood risk assessment in the planning application.  

My concern is that when we get a tidal surge like the one in the picture and waves like the ones in the video below the sea gets into the Pavillion

Ramsgate Sands, going going gone? With some thoughts on the Pleasurama site, the Royal Victoria Pavillion, the sea defences and the world wars.

Before the First World War Ramsgate had no sands at high tide, the shape formed by the promenade and the harbour wall causes some build up of sand but not enough to reach above the high tide mark.

This picture illustrates what I mean, it dates from around 1910.

Ramsgate Harbour had been in its present form for around 80 years when this preliminary sketch for Life at the Seaside by William Powell Frith was drawn in 1850.

During both world wars there was a threat of invasion so a mixture of concrete and barbed wire defences were put on Ramsgate Sands to deter the enemy. 

You can see from this picture taken not long after world war two that the amount of sand trapped by the war defences was considerable.

The situation remained the same throughout the 50s 60s and 70s

During the early 1980s most of the sand and associated wartime defences that held it in place was removed from the beach and used for the infill to build Port Ramsgate.

The amount of sand has been slowly diminishing this was the situation in 2010, note the walkway on the sands for the disabled extending from the concrete area in front of the beach cafe, this was twice as long in 2009

This is the situation today, as you can see we lost a lot of sand during the winter.

With very few exceptions the sea defences around are coast are modern concrete structures built during the last fifty years and maintained by the environment agency.

The sea defences behind Ramsgate Sands are owned and maintained by Thanet District Council. The ones in front of the pavillion date from when it was built in 1903 and had the sea smashing against them for about twelve years before the sand built up and the sea came no where near them. The ones in front of the Pleasurama site were built in 1860 so they were in contact with the sea for around 55 years and for the last 95 years the sea has come nowhere near them.

During this time the council have no record of any sea defence maintenance there and at some point they managed to lose the construction drawings.

The recent concrete steps, seats and coloured promenade sits on the sand held in place by the 1860 sea defence as do the recent Pleasurama foundations. 

  

I will ramble on here about the possible implications for the Pleasurama site and The Royal Victoria Pavillion, if I get time, though I doubt I will need to draw a diagram to get most people to understand that we have a problem. If as much sand goes as went last winter the sea will once again be smashing against the sea defences.   

The progression suggests that the Pleasurama site will be at serious risk within two or three years as it has the earliest sea defence made of slabs laid on the side of the chalk spoil from the railway tunnel that was used to elevate the site enough for the railway station.

The pavillion appears to sit on a more solid concrete defence and the sand in front of it should be the last to go, perhaps five to ten years.

Of course much could be done now to mitigate the problem, but first the situation need a professional assessment, such as the recent one done in Margate, it and the resultant works were funded out of the national coastal protection budget and not out of council tax. 

Update

 I went down there today and the situation with the sand seems to have turned some sort of critical point where it eroding more rapidly, as you see the non tidal area has nearly reached the Pavillion.

A further update this picture was taken today 18.04.2014

Thanet District Council Cabinet Meeting and Ramsgate’s Royal Victoria Pavillion

The only information about tonight’s meeting seems to be some tweets from the council’s communications team.

Tweets

1.             Communications Team ‏@ThanetCouncil42m

@andyhodder See http://bit.ly/196vL1g  for more information.

 View conversation

2.             Communications Team ‏@ThanetCouncil45m

@andyhodder We want to know if there is any commercial interest to take on the lease and operation of the Pavilion building.

 View conversation

3.             Communications Team ‏@ThanetCouncil50m

Cabinet approves a Discretionary Housing Payment Policy to ensure financial support is targeted to those most in need.

Expand

4.             Communications Team ‏@ThanetCouncil1h

Cabinet agree to commercially market the lease on the Grade II listed Royal Victorian Pavilion in Ramsgate to ensure its long term viability

Expand

5.             Communications Team ‏@ThanetCouncil1h

Cabinet agrees to progress 4 council owned sites for sale. 21 day ward consultation to follow http://bit.ly/196vL1g 

Expand

6.             Communications Team ‏@ThanetCouncil1h

TDC Cabinet approve new Equality Policy.

Expand

The agenda for the meeting is here http://tdc-mg-dmz.thanet.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=151&MId=2696&Ver=4

One of the items was extending the lease to 100 years, I think the council speak translates into this is what they intend to do.   

The rumour is that Wetherspoons want to turn it into one of their pubs, the building is in a pretty dreadful state, the links below are to some pictures I too of the inside, sorry about the quality, it’s pretty dark in there as the windows were boarded up years ago.

http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/pav2010/index.htm

http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/pav2010/id3.htm

http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/pav2010/id4.htm

http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/pav2010/id5.htm

As I guess you can see from the pictures the Pavillion is in a pretty dreadful state and needs considerable investment so it is likely that anyone making this investment would need security of tenure for long enough to raise the finance.

Another aspect is that the pavillion is subject to flooding by the sea during tidal surge storms, in 1953 it go a fair washing through by the sea, after the storm the local paper says that the sand has moved around it so that it appeared to be in the middle of the beach.  

On the bright side it is behind the largest accumulation of sand, which does help to dissipate the waves, on the not so bright side there is a lot less sand than there was in 1953 because the council used it for the Port Ramsgate infill.

Also on the bright side it is a steel framed building and as you can see from the pictures of the cellars the foundations go down to the chalk bedrock.

I do have reservations about the amount of bars the area can support, but frankly I can’t really think of another leisure use that would be likely to be viable. The building is listed, so it is likely to stay and the metal framework that holds the roof up doesn’t give an internal clear span big enough for a skating rink or swimming pool, uses that have been suggested.

  

Fire at The Royal Victoria Pavillion Ramsgate Today

This is endemic of the council owned iconic sites in Ramsgate, years of neglect, in this case a failure to implement the terms of the lease, meaning that what should be a major tourist attraction is just boarded up and derelict. 

The dreadful condition of the inside of the pavillion or pavilion – don’t know which is right – The Pav, is beyond anything I could describe so I took some pictures last November, see
http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/pav2010/index.htm

http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/pav2010/id3.htm

http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/pav2010/id4.htm

Ramsgate, Rank the council and how the Royal Victoria Pavillion got trashed

Assuming that you are a normal law abiding citizen then you know that if you fall fowl – sorry must have been thinking of chickens – foul of the council, don’t pay your council tax, abide by the conditions of your lease (if you rent a council owned property – even a beach hut) then the council will take you to court and you will have to pay up.

When it comes to large companies that fall foul of the council then things are a bit different – I am not saying that this always the council’s fault, just what happens – the trouble is that as time goes on a council can get a bit of a name as a soft touch.

Sometime back in 1969 the council leased the Pav to Fortes, at this time the Pav was the main music venue in the town, from memory the Golden Goose Showbar – correct me if I’m wrong I was 16 at the time and had other things on my mind – live music most evenings.

Over time with company takeovers, mergers and so on this lease became the responsibility of the Rank Organisation and Rank and the companies they took over, trashed the Pav.

If they obtained planning permission for the things they did to the building then I can’t find any record of it, if they took any notice of the listed building consent then I can’t find any record of that either.

I suppose much of the fault here lies with the council who just didn’t keep an eye on this important building that had been entrusted to them. As you know eventually the Rank Organisation decided that they didn’t need the building anymore and walked away from it leaving it derelict.

Eventually in April 2008 the council wrote them a letter with a list of things that Rank needed to do to be compliant with the lease, here it is http://thanetonline.com/rvpds other letters followed, much the same and the Rank Organisation painted the outside of the building.

I think that the council saw this as some sort of victory (perhaps it was) and issued a press release, here it is http://www.thanet.gov.uk/news/latest_press_releases/pavilion_work_finishes.aspx saying that work had been completed down the Pav.

I didn’t like the look of the work on the outside, in many places they have just painted over where the building has been boarded up and frankly didn’t believe the press release.

Fortunately there was still some work going on down there so I thought I had better go and have a look, at what the building was really like inside, this I did, see http://thanetonline.blogspot.com/2010/11/pictures-of-inside-of-royal-victoria.html

The dreadful condition of the inside of the pavillion or pavilion – don’t know which is right – The Pav, was beyond anything I could describe so I took some pictures, see
http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/pav2010/index.htm

http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/pav2010/id3.htm

http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/pav2010/id4.htm

after this nothing seemed to be happening with the building at all, so yesterday I asked the council what is going on with it .

This is what I asked:

“Do the council have any intention of getting Rank repair the inside of the building that is now derelict?

Is there anything on the cards apart from it standing for many more years as an empty and derelict white elephant?

Of course if you have anything else to say that I may not have thought about, say it and I will change the post accordingly.”

And this is their reply:

"The council is legally limited by what it can do in statute and in case law.

"As this was an interim schedule of dilapidations, the internal works that can be required by the landlord are very limited. Works within those parameters have now been concluded.


"Rank has a lease and they have now fulfilled their obligations within that lease."

The problem for us here in Ramsgate, is one of where do we go from here? a wealthy and major company has trashed one of main heritage and tourist assets.

The council while happy to engage in expensive legal wrangles with residents, won’t take on the Rank Organisation, probably wisely I should add.

Pictures of the inside of The Royal Victoria Pavilion Ramsgate

Originally built as a Concert Hall and Assembly Rooms in 1903. Designed by Stanley Davenport. Adshead and built by F.G. Minter of Putney.
Ostensibly in the style of a Robert Adam orangery and based on the Little Theatre at Versailles; the whole was aimed as an exercise in the Adam style. Designed in 1 week, to be built in 6 weeks in time for the 1903 season.

Sounds fantastic doesn’t it and the council have issued a press release saying:

“Repair work has been completed on one of Ramsgate’s most familiar seafront buildings.

Work has been carried out over the last four months to the Royal Victoria Pavilion on Harbour Parade by the Rank Organisation. It follows lengthy discussions with the council, which owns the building. It is Rank’s responsibility, as the tenants, to ensure that the building is kept in good repair.

Since work started in the summer, the roof of the pavilion has been repaired, partly recovered and redecorated. The external rendering was fractured and in poor condition in a large number of places, which was allowing weather penetration to occur in some of these areas. To avoid deterioration of the structure, these areas have been repaired, re-rendered and redecorated.

Cllr. Roger Latchford, Cabinet Member for Regeneration, said: “Most people in Ramsgate know the pavilion building and have wanted to see something happening with it, as has the council. We’re delighted that finally work has been completed on the exterior of the building to bring it back into good repair. Hopefully, now that this work has been undertaken, we can look forward to it being re-occupied.””

Anyway I thought I had better go and take a look, sorry the pictures didn’t come out as well as I had hoped, it was darker than I expected inside.

Here are the links to the rest of the pictures

http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/pav2010/index.htm

http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/pav2010/id3.htm

http://www.michaelsbookshop.com/pav2010/id4.htm

I am a bit lost for words at the moment, but I will add to this post later on today.